From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs vista build failures Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:55:12 +0200 Message-ID: <4889F760.30009@gmail.com> References: <87ej5oz4pb.fsf@saeurebad.de> <87vdyzxype.fsf@saeurebad.de> <871w1njq32.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87iquzxgtk.fsf@saeurebad.de> <4884CFEF.8040404@gmail.com> <48861A51.1090401@gmail.com> <20080724080727.GA3448@muc.de> <863alzd1mi.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <857ibayq3q.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <4889EC71.9050906@gmail.com> <85r69ix9c9.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217001468 12295 80.91.229.12 (25 Jul 2008 15:57:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:57:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 25 17:58:37 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KMPgb-0006F5-GJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:58:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39345 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KMPfh-0001TW-Rw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:57:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KMPdk-0000rq-0b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:55:32 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KMPdj-0000qa-B2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:55:31 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=60184 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KMPdi-0000qI-TB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:55:30 -0400 Original-Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net ([80.76.149.213]:58970) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KMPdY-0003qV-G2; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:55:21 -0400 Original-Received: from c83-254-151-176.bredband.comhem.se ([83.254.151.176]:59799 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1KMPdW-0005Hu-7i; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:55:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 In-Reply-To: <85r69ix9c9.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080725-0, 2008-07-25), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Originating-IP: 83.254.151.176 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1KMPdW-0005Hu-7i. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1KMPdW-0005Hu-7i 02cc6912a654b169a2a92e5229824743 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6? (barebone, rare!) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:101470 Archived-At: David Kastrup wrote: >>>> Are you saying that my hacking on the Windows Emacs doesn't benefit >>>> others, including Emacs on other platforms? >>> You don't have time left for getting Emacs-Bidi to run on any platform, >>> right? Now it is, of course, your choice what to spend your developer >>> time on, like it is everybody other's choice, too. >> Maybe the easiest way to give Eli more time for that is give good >> support for needed tools on w32? > > That sounds suspiciously like "throwing good time after bad time", to > borrow a management term. It really sounds like a bottomless pit: you > can throw more and more time that way, and the results will be more and > more tasks. I am surprised, David. Where are your arguments? >> At least a lot of my time has been spent working around different >> deficiencys in GNU tools and other things needed on w32. >> I do not know the reasons for these deficiences, but the deficiences >> are there. >> I can guess two main reasons for the deficiencies: >> >> 1) Lack of knowledge. It is not very common that someone knows both >> the GNU/Linux API and the w32 API in depth. A problem of this kind was >> the network problem with Emacs client on w32 (which took Juanma quite >> a while to solve). >> >> Like most other people I would assume that this kind of problems >> should be worked around with libraries when possible. Something ios >> maybe wrong when this does not work? >> >> 2) The other reason I guess is important is attitude. If a lot of >> people with good reputation says that working on w32 is not that >> important then those with a more admiring mind might agree without >> really diving into the subject. That shows up in code quality later. > > I don't see a problem. If people spend the time on other things than > w32 support, then it is likely better invested. Why are you just guessing? > Keeping this compatibility in mind means aiming for abstractions and > modularization and APIs which generate whole new subsystems and lots of > independent fragilities. At each particular point of coding, the > compatibility costs may be tolerable. But they add up. The Mozilla folks have done it. > So in addition to the time sink for the proprietary system developers > themselves, our compatibility layers add cruft complicating things for > everyone. I am not convinced that this offsets the advantages. It is exactly this attitude I think is a problem. There is not only costs there are also benefits. As long as you do not consider the benefits your arguments are valid - and you will win the debate. But that victory has a cost. What would it take to convince you? > Again: I am mostly talk and little work, and so I am hardly in a > position to admonish anybody. >