From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stephen Eilert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs for new users Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:05:35 -0300 Message-ID: <485b0c380911230905t6513e718w1dd804e18003228@mail.gmail.com> References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0023545bef708920e304790cd597 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1258996887 30882 80.91.229.12 (23 Nov 2009 17:21:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:21:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 23 18:21:20 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NCcb8-00023G-EA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:21:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47971 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCcb7-0006U8-Jx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:21:09 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCcMG-0006dE-IO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:05:48 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NCcMC-0006Z9-Q7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:05:48 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54196 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NCcMC-0006Yr-Jr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:05:44 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f213.google.com ([209.85.220.213]:33713) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NCcMA-0003bI-UN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:05:43 -0500 Original-Received: by fxm5 with SMTP id 5so6409073fxm.8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:05:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=vt2CpfWzqXWWDsJ6fK+igJ/YJ6HyZ4QPkbT+Z+XhVOM=; b=YfaKaufglYBuI8weJy5I+1peJv0PcQaTNC+QlmRu8NyV/doVCo/+P4ERE/VDJxnCIy f94XEGlxpVo5Ln/sAQKGT3moDin2o6/+aJRpsFX79gXiovq7m0MqydjKe53bxVpyr8VU XLtFvnmSSXQZW++vYfZOU6zdU9ikjyVV++i4g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=SpnIJsF+Yen2nym4ZrIvMx5hRKQmCONbLetXEUiqPZ2be73qOPcxTn04vh4q0lMpw/ CGSDaE31Ge9FphS5NRorFwu0WcZEzerIn+0x8zk/NpNeZOQNOp09iUO5sSjA9So6xFhz Blt1DPoxwr7eLeRGXyrWM8Exo3piVP5LuYIkQ= Original-Received: by 10.223.144.85 with SMTP id y21mr777334fau.1.1258995935944; Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:05:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117600 Archived-At: --0023545bef708920e304790cd597 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Per Starb=C3=A4ck wrote: > I wrote: > > But I prefer if they don't have to, since they have lots of other stuff > to learn as > > well. Every good step is a good step, even the small ones. > > I should add that I love all the care that has been taken in making > Emacs 23 even more accessible for new users > than Emacs 22 was. I'm teaching an intro course where we use Emacs > among other things, and I think if was a big > change to do this with Emacs 23 this year. Kudos to all involved! > > Maybe I should ask my students about what they have found particularly > confusing. Some things I've noticed > off the top of my head: > > * beeping is often disturbing and unexpected, in particular for > scrolling past the beginning or end of the > buffer with the scroll wheel. (I agree. That's hardly an error.) > True. That's why the very first thing I do with any emacs installation is t= o silence it. I wouldn't be as bad if the standard desktop sounds were used. I think this scroll wheel error thing should be removed entirely. > * the frame/window terminology (of course) > Also true. > * I have a hard time getting them to use *one* emacs instead of > starting several when they are editing several files. > That's probably because their .emacs files are small(if they exist at all). It takes several seconds for my emacs to start, and that's just not acceptable to me. You could try teaching them about emacsclient (and making it the default associated editor for whatever they are editing). > One reason is they want them in different frames. Probably > find-file-other-frame should be in the menus. > This is... suprising. That might be due to the lack of tabs. Even then, I'd think they'd want different windows, instead of frames. You might consider providing an standard .emacs file with this. > * They are interrupting things by doing stuff with the mouse. Like > clicking somewhere in the middle of a query-replace. > That takes time getting used to. Perhaps they don't even understand that th= e minibuffer is actually a buffer, and that their movement commands work just fine. This is not immediately apparent. --Stephen programmer, n: A red eyed, mumbling mammal capable of conversing with inanimate monsters. --0023545bef708920e304790cd597 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Per Sta= rb=C3=A4ck <per@sta= rback.se> wrote:
I wrote:
> But I prefer if they don't have to, since they have lots of other = stuff to learn as
> well. Every good step is a good step, even the small ones.

I should add that I love all the care that has been taken in making
Emacs 23 even more accessible for new users
than Emacs 22 was. I'm teaching an intro course where we use Emacs
among other things, and I think if was a big
change to do this with Emacs 23 this year. Kudos to all involved!

Maybe I should ask my students about what they have found particularly
confusing. Some things I've noticed
off the top of my head:

* beeping is often disturbing and unexpected, in particular for
scrolling past the beginning or end of the
=C2=A0buffer with the scroll wheel. (I agree. That's hardly an error.)=

True. That's why the very first thing I do wi= th any emacs installation is to silence it. I wouldn't be as bad if the= standard desktop sounds were used.

I think this scroll wheel error thing should be removed entirely.
= =C2=A0
* the frame/window terminology (of course)

Also tr= ue.
=C2=A0
* I have a hard time getting them to use *one* emacs instead of
starting several when they are editing several files.
=
That's probably because their .emacs files are small(if they exist = at all). It takes several seconds for my emacs to start, and that's jus= t not acceptable to me.

You could try teaching them about emacsclient (and making it the defaul= t associated editor for whatever they are editing).
=C2=A0
=C2=A0One reason is they want them in different frames. Probably
find-file-other-frame should be in the menus.

This= is... suprising. That might be due to the lack of tabs. Even then, I'd= think they'd want different windows, instead of frames.

You mig= ht consider providing an standard .emacs file with this.
=C2=A0
* They are interrupting things by doing stuff with the mouse. Like
clicking somewhere in the middle of a query-replace.
<= br>That takes time getting used to. Perhaps they don't even understand = that the minibuffer is actually a buffer, and that their movement commands = work just fine. This is not immediately apparent.
=C2=A0

--Stephen

programmer, n:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0A red eyed, mumbling mammal capable of conversing with inanimate = monsters.

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