From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.pretest.bugs Subject: Re: 23.0.60; M-( and M-) should not be bound in ESC map Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:10:18 -0700 Message-ID: <47FE49FA.3080306@emf.net> References: <003801c89a85$fcd95ad0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <20080410154940.GB7700@muc.de> <20080410162459.GC7700@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1207845024 15383 80.91.229.12 (10 Apr 2008 16:30:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:30:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juanma Barranquero , Richard Stallman , emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 10 18:30:56 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JjzfY-0006r2-JB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:30:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jjzeu-0004Ru-62 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:29:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jjzeq-0004RG-N8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:29:52 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jjzep-0004Px-0V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:29:52 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jjzeo-0004Pa-PR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:29:50 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jjzeo-0006dM-8j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:29:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166] helo=mx10.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Jjzeo-0003Wd-0u for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:29:50 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jjzek-0006cV-Dk for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:29:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.42inc.com ([205.149.0.25]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (SSL 3.0:RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA1:24) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jjzej-0006bX-Nl; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:29:46 -0400 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.5 X-TFF-CGPSA-Filter-42inc: Scanned X-42-Virus-Scanned: by 42 Antivirus -- Found to be clean. Original-Received: from [69.236.65.64] (account lord@emf.net HELO [192.168.1.64]) by mail.42inc.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPA id 27727648; Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:29:27 -0700 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060808) In-Reply-To: <20080410162459.GC7700@muc.de> X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:94883 gmane.emacs.pretest.bugs:21963 Archived-At: Not to prolong discussion, but: Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Well, are we currently starting another long heated discussion, not even > talking about well established things? I won't be carrying on with this > thread too long. ;-) > > A lot of the recent discussions haven't been about "the slightest > change"s, they've been about changing the very core features of Emacs. > Everybody on this list has strong views about these, and proposing a > changes to them is bound to trigger off long heated discussions. > > Let's get back to Emacs bugs and features! > Over the years, a fairly complex program like Emacs suffers from "entropy" in the architecture of the core. Slight mistakes get somewhat locked in. Then more slight mistakes get added. And eventually you can wind up with an intractable program. Some would argue we should have faith in "cleverness" and that clever simple fixes from time to time will counter-act the entropy, but I am pretty sure that is just wishful thinking in a project with a 20+ year history. That doesn't mean people should argue about these impractical changes here -- the main point of these recent comments. But... The entropy problem can be directly attacked by some obvious things like starting a side discussion, elsewhere, about the architectural issues; working out a plan to deal with them; then executing that plan. That's an idea but an incomplete one, because, really, whose got the time? And that observation ("whose got the time?") points out where the deeper problem is: The GNU project doesn't have enough money. Money alone isn't the solution. Given money for hacking, the next hard problem is how to spend it wisely. So there are two sides to that coin. Plans for getting more money and spending that money would need to be developed hand in hand. Oh well. I am pretty conservative about what goes in my .emacs. I mostly use Emacs in ways not too far removed from using in v18 or so. I'm not worried about the imminent heat death of Emacs by a long shot. Some of the new features (e.g., Eclipse-inspired stuff) look potentially very cool. But as this list (hopefully) concludes (at least for now) quibbling over hard architectural issues (with no results from that quibbling), I just hope people will think about the larger context and why these problems are hard to cope with. Something to stew around in the back of your mind. Thanks, -t