From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David De La Harpe Golden Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Preserving sanity in Emacs [Re: rampant region highlighting] Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 00:50:42 +0100 Message-ID: <47F961D2.7080002@harpegolden.net> References: <47F945C3.1060103@harpegolden.net> <20080406230056.GB5362@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1207525865 7514 80.91.229.12 (6 Apr 2008 23:51:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 23:51:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Glenn Morris , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 07 01:51:38 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jiee9-0001oa-IE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Apr 2008 01:51:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JiedW-0000ko-Fq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:50:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JiedR-0000gj-6n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:50:53 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JiedQ-0000ex-BA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:50:52 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JiedQ-0000ek-7C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:50:52 -0400 Original-Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JiedL-0003Lu-IQ; Sun, 06 Apr 2008 19:50:47 -0400 Original-Received: from golden1.harpegolden.net (86-43-160-191.b-ras2.prp.dublin.eircom.net [86.43.160.191]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 2" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7C88421; Sun, 6 Apr 2008 23:50:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080110) In-Reply-To: <20080406230056.GB5362@muc.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:94531 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie wrote: > PLEASE STOP DOING THIS!!! This is a _mailing_ _list_, not a web forum. > Quote the Subject:, Date:, and Message-Id: at the very least, please, for > heaven's sake! From: martin rudalics Subject: Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:30:11 +0100 I don't see the Message-Id in the archive - I don't see why the archive couldn't present them in principle, it just doesn't. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg01892.html > So, point disappears off your screen. How are you supposed to get back > there? What key sequence would you suggest for the new command > `scroll-to-pont'? What's more disturbing overall, jump scrolling (it could be rapidly smooth-scrolled given today's hardware...) or emacs taking it upon itself to move your chosen point position? I acknowledge that having the point always on-screen has benefits too (though e.g. a fringe indicator could "point towards the offscreen point" to address some concerns there...), but what if I'm just scrolling up to look at something? Martin's hack ensured that I can scroll away to have a look, and the point will reliably be where I left it when I scrolled back. Users are used to their editors' points staying where they left them during scrolling these days- you talk of losing mental context, well, if your mind is used to the editor leaving the point where you left it rather than having to remember, then emacs' point warping is a pretty big context disruptor. BOOM! The word "you" (as represented by your boxy 3rd person avatar, the point) were "on" isn't the word you're on anymore, you're on some completely different sentence! Why should scrolling, just sliding your viewpoint around, change that? Just adjusting the camera position in a computer game doesn't usually make your character randomly teleport to different platforms. Scrolling a web page form doesn't make the cursor jump from form field to form field, etc. I'm quite used to emacs conventions, having literally grown up using it (okay, beginning with amiga's bundled microemacs rather than gnu emacs), so I'm playing devils advocate to an extent here, but it's not like it'd be impossible for emacs to support both point-ensured-onscreen and point-can-go-offscreen behaviours _anyway_. >> When t-m-m is OFF, point movement after a mouse selection by mouse >> dragging deactivates the mouse drag overlay, so you don't notice >> anything amiss, but when t-m-m is on, mouse dragging defines /and >> activates/ the "real" mark-point region, and it is not deactivated by >> subsequent point movements (This also ties in to the shift-selection >> discussion, as it could be deactivated by unshifted movements in those >> cases, say). > > That's too complicated for me at this time of night. Turns out it was wrong anyway for very recent CVS emacs as Chong Yidong just pointed out, though the overlay face change I suggested was still informative for helping me working out what was going on, as with a emacs rebuilt from up-to-date CVS, I could see the drag-overlay->region transition even with t-m-m off, only happening at a different time to t-m-m on. > The point is the place on the screen that you're looking at, where new > text appears when you type. Are you suggesting that when you type, you > shouldn't see anything, because "point" isn't on the screen? > Nope, jump-scroll back to insertion point handily addresses that. :-)