File > Close and File > Save

File > Close and File > Save

[Drew Adams]

1. The File > Close menu item is unclear. In fact, this is essentially
kill-buffer, but you would never guess that. And there is no key binding shown.
Menus are one way to learn what commands are available and what keys they are
bound to. This item should teach C-x k.

The menu item should be renamed and C-x k should be put next to the item. What
name should be used? Well, how about `Kill Buffer'? If users can handle names
such as Print Buffer (an item in the same menu), then they ought to be able to
handle `Kill Buffer'. 

`Close' is often used for a dialog box or an application, and in the File menu,
in particular, it can be confusing (`Close' vs `Exit Emacs'), if not
meaningless.

`Close Buffer' would be clearer, but AFAICT this is the only place in Emacs,
including all of the doc, where we speak of closing, not killing, a buffer. At
the very least, if we do use `Close Buffer', the doc should call out the synonym
somewhere.

The lack of a key reminder here, BTW, is held up in the following essay (which
is admittedly misleading and inaccurate in some ways) as a good example of
Emacs's UI problems: http://www.surfaceeffect.com/thoughts/emacs. Here's what it
says about this:

 "On the Files menu there is an entry for killing the current buffer
 (there's a buffer menu too, so why is this entry not on that?).
 However, I have never seen, on any version of emacs I've ever used,
 that entry have its key-binding displayed. The Key binding is "C-x k",
 but you'd never know."


2. In a related vein, we have item `Revert Buffer', but just `Save' and `Save
As'. Every other item on the File menu has a verb and object. How about `Save
Buffer' and `Save Buffer As', for consistency and clarity?

Re: File > Close and File > Save

[Jason Rumney]

Drew Adams wrote:
> `Close' is often used for a dialog box or an application, and in the File menu,
> in particular, it can be confusing (`Close' vs `Exit Emacs'), if not
> meaningless.
>   

In my experience Close is used to Close files or windows within an 
application. Some applications will exit when the last file or window is 
closed, others leave a blank window and disable that menu entry. Exit is 
used to exit applications.

Re: File > Close and File > Save

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:42:23 -0700
> 
> 1. The File > Close menu item is unclear. In fact, this is essentially
> kill-buffer, but you would never guess that.

I think the tooltip for this menu item hints on that.

> And there is no key binding shown.
> Menus are one way to learn what commands are available and what keys they are
> bound to. This item should teach C-x k.

Emacs does this automatically, but the problem here is that the
File->Close menu item does not run kill-buffer, the command usually
bound to C-x k.  It runs a different command.

> The menu item should be renamed and C-x k should be put next to the item. What
> name should be used? Well, how about `Kill Buffer'?

File->Close is a standard menu item in most, if not all, applications
that visit files.  For that reason, I object to renaming this menu
item in Emacs.

> 2. In a related vein, we have item `Revert Buffer', but just `Save' and `Save
> As'. Every other item on the File menu has a verb and object. How about `Save
> Buffer' and `Save Buffer As', for consistency and clarity?

I'd prefer to remove "buffer" from "Revert buffer", if we are obsessed
with consistency.  Again, because "Save" and "Save As" are standard
items on the File menu in GUI applications that visit files.

RE: File > Close and File > Save

[Drew Adams]

> > 1. The File > Close menu item is unclear. In fact, this is 
> > essentially kill-buffer, but you would never guess that.
> 
> I think the tooltip for this menu item hints on that.

Tooltips are fine, but their existence is not a reason not to get the menu items
right. Tooltips are extra information; they are not a substitute for good menu
names.

> > And there is no key binding shown.
> > Menus are one way to learn what commands are available and 
> > what keys they are
> > bound to. This item should teach C-x k.
> 
> Emacs does this automatically, but the problem here is that the
> File->Close menu item does not run kill-buffer, the command usually
> bound to C-x k.  It runs a different command.

Yes, I know that. That's no excuse. Emacs has :key for this purpose. The point
is to let the menu teach the key bindings. It makes sense to hint that you can
kill the buffer with `C-x k'.

> > The menu item should be renamed and C-x k should be put 
> > next to the item. What
> > name should be used? Well, how about `Kill Buffer'?
> 
> File->Close is a standard menu item in most, if not all, applications
> that visit files.  For that reason, I object to renaming this menu
> item in Emacs.

Emacs doesn't just visit files. Close doesn't only mean toss a file.

No connection between killing a buffer and Close is made anywhere in the doc or
doc strings. File > Close is an orphan adrift on a raft. The tooltip is its only
lifeline, and `C-h k' is its only anchor.

> > 2. In a related vein, we have item `Revert Buffer', but 
> > just `Save' and `Save As'. Every other item on the File menu
> > has a verb and object. How about `Save
> > Buffer' and `Save Buffer As', for consistency and clarity?
> 
> I'd prefer to remove "buffer" from "Revert buffer", if we are obsessed
> with consistency.  Again, because "Save" and "Save As" are standard
> items on the File menu in GUI applications that visit files.

Files are not the only things you can save in Emacs. We have Save Options, Save
Bookmarks [As], Save Dictionary,...

It's about clarity, not obsessive or even consistent consistency. Revert Buffer
is clearer than Revert. Save Buffer is clearer than Save. Exit Emacs is clearer
than Exit. Kill Buffer (or even Close Buffer) is clearer than Close.

But I won't belabor it. If resistence is at a point where not adding a
key-binding hint for something as important as killing a buffer is defended in
terms of that not happening automatically because `kill-this-buffer' is not
exactly `kill-buffer' ("not my fault"), then we are in the realm of mauvaise foi
and there is no hope of prying eyes open. 

The point of the mail and the cited essay was to encourage a second look at the
menu. But the ground hog sees its shadow and returns to its burrow for another
few years... A long winter indeed.

Re: File > Close and File > Save

[Jason Rumney]

Drew Adams wrote:

> It's about clarity, not obsessive or even consistent consistency. Revert Buffer
> is clearer than Revert. Save Buffer is clearer than Save. Exit Emacs is clearer
> than Exit. Kill Buffer (or even Close Buffer) is clearer than Close.
>   

For new users, it is clearer to use terms that they are familiar with in 
the menus, even if we think that the familiar term is oversimplifying 
things. We made this decision several versions ago, and going back to 
terms that only experienced emacs users understand would be a step 
backwards.

Re: File > Close and File > Save

[David Reitter]

On 24 Mar 2008, at 10:57, Jason Rumney wrote:

> Drew Adams wrote:
>
>> It's about clarity, not obsessive or even consistent consistency.  
>> Revert Buffer
>> is clearer than Revert. Save Buffer is clearer than Save. Exit  
>> Emacs is clearer
>> than Exit. Kill Buffer (or even Close Buffer) is clearer than Close.
>>
>
> For new users, it is clearer to use terms that they are familiar  
> with in the menus, even if we think that the familiar term is  
> oversimplifying things. We made this decision several versions ago,  
> and going back to terms that only experienced emacs users understand  
> would be a step backwards.

So it ought to be "close buffer" rather than "kill".

But all other things equal, why is the menu called "File" and not  
"Buffer"?

FWIW, in Aquamacs we have

File:
- New Buffer
- New Buffer ->  [sub-menu with common and recently used major modes]
- Open File...
- Open Recent -> [recentf menu]
- Open Directory...
- Insert File...
- Change Buffer Mode  ->  [sub-menu with common and recently used  
major modes]
---
Close Buffer
Save Buffer
Save Buffer As...
Export Buffer -> [HTML and PDF export options]
Revert Buffer
Recover Crashed Session
---
Show in Finder  (this is a Mac specific option, which could be  
implemented elsewhere as well)
---
Color Printing (checkmark)
Preview and Print Buffer...
Quick Print Buffer (that's the normal Postscript printing method)


- D

Re: File > Close and File > Save

[Lennart Borgman (gmail)]

David Reitter wrote:
> But all other things equal, why is the menu called "File" and not "Buffer"?

At least on w32 this seems to be the name used by nearly all applications.