unofficial mirror of emacs-devel@gnu.org 
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Thomas Lord <lord@emf.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com>,
	Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu>,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org, "Kim F. Storm" <storm@cua.dk>
Subject: what's the point (re shift selection)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:47:19 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <47DDE9C7.9020601@emf.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <jwv7ig2f6rk.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>

What *is* "the point"?

In emacs, "the point" is the name of a potential
location for the gap.   Insert commands always
happen at the gap.  "the point" is the gap location
of interest.  It's "what we're talking about".   It's
a key element of the dynamic state.

That's all traditional.   That's done.  That's how
Emacs has always worked.

Ok, next new insight: what exactly do we mean by
"potential location for the gap"?

Trivially, the gap can be placed between any two
extant, adjacent characters.  That's again, traditional
Emacs behavior.

But there is a generalization..... specifically: drop
the the qualifier "adjacent" and say, instead:

The point represents the potential gap between
any two characters in the buffer.

So, sometimes the point is not "point-like" -- it
is a "fat cursor".   The point is a potential gap that
spans between two non-adjacent characters.

That is how shift selection behaves in other apps --
as if the point is clearly the name of an arbitrary
potential gap, not merely a potential gap between
two already adjacent characters.

The concept of a "tentative-mark" is to give a
direct expression to the idea of a "fat cursor" -- of
a point that actually spans many characters.

The phase sensitivity -- the "maybe-preserved-..."
and "preserved-..." variables -- that is, indeed, a kind
of "psychological" hack.   Those *are* ad hoc.  They
are hair, as hair goes.   But they are minimal hair. 
They default in all the right ways.  They are easy to
explain and deal with.    They are a feature that exists
at the intersection between "how people think with short
term memory" and "how the emacs command loop works".
They are TRT, imho.

Over and out.   I give up.   Back to work on my VM and,
now, thanks to (friendly, good) provocation by Stefan, also
back to work on Arch 2.0 if I can work up the courage to
squeeze it in.

Have fun.  Let's test this "meritocracy of ideas" concept
the hard way :-)

-t





  reply	other threads:[~2008-03-17  3:47 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 166+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-03-13 23:29 Shift selection using interactive spec Chong Yidong
2008-03-14  0:44 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14  0:10   ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14  1:22     ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14  9:46       ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 10:01         ` Johan Bockgård
2008-03-14 10:30           ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 11:18           ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14 11:11         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14 10:42           ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 11:36             ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14 11:50             ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14 11:39               ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 18:41                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-14  4:06 ` Dan Nicolaescu
2008-03-14 14:26   ` Kim F. Storm
2008-03-14 14:32     ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-14 14:53       ` Kim F. Storm
2008-03-14 16:19         ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 15:54       ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-14 16:09         ` Drew Adams
2008-03-14 20:52         ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-14 20:59           ` David Kastrup
2008-03-14 21:08             ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-15  0:56           ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-15  2:02             ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-15  3:31               ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-15 14:07                 ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-15 15:07                   ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-15 17:11                     ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-15 20:52                       ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-15 21:45                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16 14:15                           ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-16 14:37                             ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-15 22:01                         ` shift-select harmony Thomas Lord
2008-03-15 23:38                           ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-15 17:16                   ` Shift selection using interactive spec Kim F. Storm
2008-03-15 20:59                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16 23:31                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-15 21:08                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16  0:27                       ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-16  1:37                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16  9:09                           ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-16 14:21                             ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-16 16:56                               ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16 16:34                             ` Dear lazyweb (Re: Shift selection using interactive spec) Thomas Lord
2008-03-16 18:40                           ` Shift selection using interactive spec Stefan Monnier
2008-03-16 21:00                             ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16 20:45                               ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-16 21:46                                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16 21:24                                   ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2008-03-16 22:27                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16 23:04                               ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-16 23:17                                 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-17  0:46                                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-17  0:21                                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-17  1:16                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16 23:35                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-17  0:55                                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-17  2:23                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-17  3:12                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-17  2:21                               ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-17  3:47                                 ` Thomas Lord [this message]
2008-03-16 14:40                     ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-16 15:04                       ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-16 17:13                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-17  0:54                       ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-17  2:40                         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-17  3:24                           ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-17 13:26                             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-17 16:33                               ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-17 17:21                                 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-17 19:11                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-17 21:10                                   ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-17 21:44                                     ` Drew Adams
2008-03-18 11:40                                     ` Kim F. Storm
2008-03-18 14:16                                       ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-18 15:07                                         ` Kim F. Storm
2008-03-18 16:24                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18 17:54                                         ` Drew Adams
2008-03-20  5:03                                   ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-23  1:39                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-17 22:24                                 ` martin rudalics
2008-03-17 22:37                                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-18  0:50                                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-18  7:48                                       ` martin rudalics
2008-03-18 17:46                                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-18 17:36                                           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-18 19:07                                             ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-18  7:48                                     ` martin rudalics
2008-03-17 22:53                                   ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-18  3:12                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18  7:49                                     ` martin rudalics
2008-03-18 16:36                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18 16:44                                         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-18 14:45                               ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-18 16:39                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18 18:28                                   ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-18 21:42                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-18 22:30                                       ` Kim F. Storm
2008-03-18 22:39                                         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-19  4:40                                         ` M Jared Finder
2008-03-26  8:09                                           ` David Kastrup
2008-03-26 10:48                                             ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-26 11:32                                               ` David Kastrup
2008-03-26 11:39                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-26 12:20                                                   ` David Kastrup
2008-03-26 13:14                                                     ` Johan Bockgård
2008-03-26 13:26                                                       ` David Kastrup
2008-03-26 14:52                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-27  0:46                                                     ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-26 12:02                                                 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-26 11:47                                               ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-26 22:26                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-26 23:31                                                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-27  7:02                                                     ` David Kastrup
2008-03-27  8:19                                                       ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-27  8:41                                                         ` David Kastrup
2008-03-27 13:57                                                           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-27 14:39                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-03-27 15:01                                                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-27 15:34                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-27 15:41                                                                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-27 15:13                                                               ` Johan Bockgård
2008-03-27 19:41                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-27 23:52                                                       ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-28  7:33                                                         ` David Kastrup
2008-03-29  0:47                                                           ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-29  7:03                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-03-29 11:53                                                               ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-29 12:30                                                               ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-29 14:07                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-29 14:45                                                                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-29 15:09                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2008-03-29 15:30                                                                       ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-30  0:52                                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-30 17:56                                                                     ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30  5:49                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-28  4:05                                                       ` M Jared Finder
2008-03-28 11:10                                                         ` David Kastrup
2008-03-28 17:14                                                           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-28 20:05                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-03-28 23:49                                                               ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-28 20:42                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-28 21:47                                                           ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-28 22:01                                                             ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30  0:48                                                               ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-30 17:55                                                                 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 18:55                                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-27  0:49                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-27  2:59                                                     ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-27 19:41                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-27 23:48                                                       ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-28 20:41                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-29  0:54                                                           ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-29  1:15                                                             ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-29 16:37                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-30  1:05                                                               ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-30  4:12                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-30 18:33                                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-31 16:24                                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-30 19:56                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-30 22:46                                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2008-03-26 22:26                                               ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-18 17:45                                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-16  2:33                 ` Richard Stallman

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=47DDE9C7.9020601@emf.net \
    --to=lord@emf.net \
    --cc=cyd@stupidchicken.com \
    --cc=dann@ics.uci.edu \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca \
    --cc=storm@cua.dk \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).