Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Glenn Morris]

Dan Nicolaescu wrote:

> --- etc/images/icons/README	9 Jan 2008 04:23:22 -0000	1.8
> +++ etc/images/icons/README	2 Mar 2008 18:18:35 -0000	1.9
> @@ -2,12 +2,8 @@
>  
>  Files: hicolor/16x16/apps/emacs.png hicolor/24x24/apps/emacs.png
>         hicolor/32x32/apps/emacs.png hicolor/48x48/apps/emacs.png
> -Author: Andrew Zhilin <andrew_zhilin@yahoo.com>

There's no harm in keeping the old icons installed as well, is there?
Perhaps as "emacs22.png"?

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Glenn Morris <rgm+gmane@gnu.org> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
  > 
  > > --- etc/images/icons/README	9 Jan 2008 04:23:22 -0000	1.8
  > > +++ etc/images/icons/README	2 Mar 2008 18:18:35 -0000	1.9
  > > @@ -2,12 +2,8 @@
  > >  
  > >  Files: hicolor/16x16/apps/emacs.png hicolor/24x24/apps/emacs.png
  > >         hicolor/32x32/apps/emacs.png hicolor/48x48/apps/emacs.png
  > > -Author: Andrew Zhilin <andrew_zhilin@yahoo.com>
  > 
  > There's no harm in keeping the old icons installed as well, is there?
  > Perhaps as "emacs22.png"?

Why bother? If anyone needs them, they can be obtained from the 22.1
release. 

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Miles Bader]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>   > There's no harm in keeping the old icons installed as well, is there?
>   > Perhaps as "emacs22.png"?
>
> Why bother? If anyone needs them, they can be obtained from the 22.1
> release. 

Er, because they're nice icons, and people may want to use them?

As it costs us basically nothing, there's no reason _not_ to, and people
may appreciate it.

[I've been using the new icons for a while, and generally find I prefer
the old one...]

-Miles

-- 
Inhumanity, n. One of the signal and characteristic qualities of humanity.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Glenn Morris]

Miles Bader wrote:

> Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>>   > There's no harm in keeping the old icons installed as well, is there?
>>   > Perhaps as "emacs22.png"?
>>
>> Why bother? If anyone needs them, they can be obtained from the 22.1
>> release. 
>
> Er, because they're nice icons, and people may want to use them?
>
> As it costs us basically nothing, there's no reason _not_ to, and people
> may appreciate it.

You said it. (I hoped the reasons were obvious.)

Anyway, I did so.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

  > Miles Bader wrote:
  > 
  > > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > >>   > There's no harm in keeping the old icons installed as well, is there?
  > >>   > Perhaps as "emacs22.png"?
  > >>
  > >> Why bother? If anyone needs them, they can be obtained from the 22.1
  > >> release. 
  > >
  > > Er, because they're nice icons, and people may want to use them?
  > >
  > > As it costs us basically nothing, there's no reason _not_ to, and people
  > > may appreciate it.
  > 
  > You said it. (I hoped the reasons were obvious.)
  >
  > Anyway, I did so.

Will the old icons be installed by default as
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/*/apps/emacs22.png ? 

If yes, that just adds clutter, tools that use icons will not know to
look for these icon names.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Andreas Schwab]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> Will the old icons be installed by default as
> /usr/share/icons/hicolor/*/apps/emacs22.png ? 
>
> If yes, that just adds clutter, tools that use icons will not know to
> look for these icon names.

But you could edit the desktop file and switch to the emacs22 icon.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[David De La Harpe Golden]

Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
> 
> Will the old icons be installed by default as
> /usr/share/icons/hicolor/*/apps/emacs22.png ? 
> 
> If yes, that just adds clutter, tools that use icons will not know to
> look for these icon names.
> 

? If they are installed there, I thought the KDE (and GNOME probably)
icon selectors will at least see them?  Won't match to "emacs" based on
name, but if the user decides they don't like the current icon and
manually changes it, it'll be listed in the "system/applications" icon
list in the manual icon selection GUI?

Personally, while I think the new icon is fine, I prefer the old icon on
my own desktop- I like each major app I use to have a significantly
different shape in outline, and with the new icon I've got multiple
round icons (since web browser has been a little globe of one sort or
another for me since the 1990s, though nowadays wrapped in a weasel)

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > 
  > > Will the old icons be installed by default as
  > > /usr/share/icons/hicolor/*/apps/emacs22.png ? 
  > >
  > > If yes, that just adds clutter, tools that use icons will not know to
  > > look for these icon names.
  > 
  > But you could edit the desktop file and switch to the emacs22 icon.

If you can do that, then you can also install the old icons by
yourself.
Anyway the argument was that adding these icons does no harm, if they
get installed by default, it does.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Andreas Schwab]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> Anyway the argument was that adding these icons does no harm, if they
> get installed by default, it does.

What is the harm in installing additional icons??

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > 
  > > Anyway the argument was that adding these icons does no harm, if they
  > > get installed by default, it does.
  > 
  > What is the harm in installing additional icons??

Clutter.
When we get another icon, there will be 2 more people that like the
previous version, so we'll have emacs22.png emacs23.png emacs.png. 
And after that the people that like the emacs-19, 20 and 21 icons will
come out and ask why aren't those icons to be installed by default?

More, the emacs22 icons are not available for all sizes and formats
(no .svg).  We will get bug reports that a format is missing.

Even more, is there any other application that installs multiple icon
versions? I can't find any on my up to date desktop machine.  Why should
emacs be special in that respect?

It's simply not worth it to have to deal with all these things. Keep it simple.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Andreas Schwab]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> And after that the people that like the emacs-19, 20 and 21 icons will
> come out and ask why aren't those icons to be installed by default?

Why not?

> More, the emacs22 icons are not available for all sizes and formats
> (no .svg).  We will get bug reports that a format is missing.

I don't think so.  KDE is smart enough to choose the best fitting one.

> It's simply not worth it to have to deal with all these things. Keep it simple.

There is nothing complex about it.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > 
  > > And after that the people that like the emacs-19, 20 and 21 icons will
  > > come out and ask why aren't those icons to be installed by default?
  > 
  > Why not?

Because it is useless for the vast majority of users?
The advantage of having a default icon is that it works without any user
intervention.

The 3 users that prefer old icons and have time to spare dealing with
this, can do the work and install any icon they want by themselves.

Why should we bother supporting such things?

Again, no other application does it, why should emacs do it?

  > > More, the emacs22 icons are not available for all sizes and formats
  > > (no .svg).  We will get bug reports that a format is missing.
  > 
  > I don't think so.  KDE is smart enough to choose the best fitting one.

Except that if the one missing format is what the user requires by
default, it will look ugly => bug report.

  > > It's simply not worth it to have to deal with all these things. Keep it simple.
  > 
  > There is nothing complex about it.

Of course there is.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Andreas Schwab]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> Except that if the one missing format is what the user requires by
> default, it will look ugly => bug report.

They are good enough for emacs 22, why should they suddenly become ugly?

>   > > It's simply not worth it to have to deal with all these things. Keep it simple.
>   > 
>   > There is nothing complex about it.
>
> Of course there is.

Please explain.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > 
  > > Except that if the one missing format is what the user requires by
  > > default, it will look ugly => bug report.
  > 
  > They are good enough for emacs 22, why should they suddenly become ugly?

It's obvious: what if in 5 years from now only .svg icons are used or
the default size is not one of the ones provided for old icons?


  > >   > > It's simply not worth it to have to deal with all these things. Keep it simple.
  > >   > 
  > >   > There is nothing complex about it.
  > >
  > > Of course there is.
  > 
  > Please explain.

This whole discussion is a good enough explanation.  How about explaining
why installing many versions of an icon is important?  And why should
emacs do it when no other application does it?  Where should we stop,
should we install old version of the toolbar icons too?


This should have been discussed more: the old icons were put in the tree
only because "there's no harm".

The fact that they get installed by default should have been discussed
separately, as it is a new thing that has not been done in the past when
icons have changed.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Leo]

On 2008-03-03 19:19 +0000, Andreas Schwab wrote:
> Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>
>> And after that the people that like the emacs-19, 20 and 21 icons will
>> come out and ask why aren't those icons to be installed by default?
>
> Why not?
>
>> More, the emacs22 icons are not available for all sizes and formats
>> (no .svg).  We will get bug reports that a format is missing.
>
> I don't think so.  KDE is smart enough to choose the best fitting one.
>
>> It's simply not worth it to have to deal with all these things. Keep it simple.
>
> There is nothing complex about it.
>
> Andreas.

Keep the old icons in the data dir, that is simple and clean.

It's so funny to see in the past, that so many arguments went into a
tiny aspect of Emacs and then a even stupider solution was reached.

-- 
.:  Leo  :.  [ sdl.web AT gmail.com ]  .:  [ GPG Key: 9283AA3F ]  :.

          Use the best OS -- http://www.fedoraproject.org/

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Glenn Morris]

My goodness, it is stormy in this teacup!


Dan Nicolaescu wrote:

> Clutter.

I think you are being silly.

> When we get another icon, there will be 2 more people that like the
> previous version, so we'll have emacs22.png emacs23.png emacs.png. 

Yes.

(Oh, and if you want numbers, I don't like the new "Mac" icons. But I
don't care what the default Emacs icon is, so I made no comment when
opinion was solicited. I also don't understand your desire to change
the Emacs icon every major release, but neither do I care. If it makes
you happy, you go ahead.)

> And after that the people that like the emacs-19, 20 and 21 icons will
> come out and ask why aren't those icons to be installed by default?

If I had the right formats and clear copyright assignments, I'd
install them now.

> More, the emacs22 icons are not available for all sizes and formats
> (no .svg).  We will get bug reports that a format is missing.

You can assign all such bug reports to me. I will happily ignore them.

> Even more, is there any other application that installs multiple icon
> versions? I can't find any on my up to date desktop machine.  Why should
> emacs be special in that respect?

Why shouldn't it?

> It's simply not worth it to have to deal with all these things. Keep
> it simple.

By "all those things", you appear to mean emails. I assure you, the
effort expended in this thread already far outweighs any that might be
required to deal with these putative emails.

I'm just offering people who want to make a choice an easier way to do
so. And I'm doing the necessary work, so I don't see what your problem
is.


I also feel like pointing out it was me who wrote the Makefile rules
to install the precious icons, at your request. What you are actually
asking for is to change these rules to only install `emacs.png'. This
is utterly trivial, but I disagree with you that this is needed. But
if people agree with you, I'll make that change.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

  > My goodness, it is stormy in this teacup!
  > 
  > 
  > Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
  > 
  > > Clutter.
  > 
  > I think you are being silly.

I won't dignify this type of comment with an answer.

End of my contribution to this thread.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Glenn Morris]

I apologize for any offence caused by my choice of language.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Johan Bockgård]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> Oh, and if you want numbers, I don't like the new "Mac" icons.

You are not alone.

-- 
Johan Bockgård

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 02:05:38 +0100, bojohan+news@dd.chalmers.se (Johan Bockgård) said:

>> Oh, and if you want numbers, I don't like the new "Mac" icons.

> You are not alone.

Aside from my personal preference, I don't think it's that Mac-like
(or Apple-like, at least) in the sense that the blue ball occupying
the largest part doesn't stand for anything.  Compare it with the
standard ones given in
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGIcons/chapter_15_section_2.html

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Miles Bader]

YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu <mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> writes:
> Aside from my personal preference, I don't think it's that Mac-like
> (or Apple-like, at least) in the sense that the blue ball occupying
> the largest part doesn't stand for anything.

Perhaps an updated version of the kitchen-sink icon would be best after
all... :-)

-miles

-- 
Clarionet, n. An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his
ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarionet -- two
clarionets.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Stephen Berman]

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 02:05:38 +0100 bojohan+news@dd.chalmers.se (Johan Bockgård) wrote:

> Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Oh, and if you want numbers, I don't like the new "Mac" icons.
>
> You are not alone.

If the pen were eliminated from the new icon I would like it, even
better than the "notebook" icon.  Especially in the small versions used
in GUI frames, taskbars, etc., the pen looks like a smudge.

Steve Berman

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2008, Miles Bader wrote:

> Perhaps an updated version of the kitchen-sink icon would be best
> after all... :-)

Was a bike shed already suggested? ;-)
<http://www.bikeshed.com/>

Ulrich

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Johan Bockgård]

Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> writes:

> Was a bike shed already suggested? ;-)

Actually, yes.

-- 
Johan Bockgård

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Miles Bader]

bojohan+news@dd.chalmers.se (Johan Bockgård) writes:
>> Was a bike shed already suggested? ;-)
>
> Actually, yes.

But what color would it be?

-Miles

-- 
Innards, n. pl. The stomach, heart, soul, and other bowels.

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Perhaps an updated version of the kitchen-sink icon would be best
>> after all... :-)

> Was a bike shed already suggested? ;-)
> <http://www.bikeshed.com/>

I must be missing something: I couldn't find any icon there.


        Stefan

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:30:14 +0900, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> said:

>> Aside from my personal preference, I don't think it's that Mac-like
>> (or Apple-like, at least) in the sense that the blue ball occupying
>> the largest part doesn't stand for anything.

> Perhaps an updated version of the kitchen-sink icon would be best
> after all... :-)

In this sense, the notebook icon was much more Mac-like, though it
didn't have a sufficient resolution.

To make the "ball" something meaningful, how about adding some
highlighting along its side edges so it looks like parentheses?

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

Re: Changes to emacs/etc/images/icons/README,v

[Kentaro Ohkouchi]

2008/3/5, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu <mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp>:
>
>  To make the "ball" something meaningful, how about adding some
>  highlighting along its side edges so it looks like parentheses?
>

The motif of "E" has become unremarkable though the image to have
emphasized the highlight on the edge in the past was made.

I think that a present arrangement of color is the best.

It takes one month or more to make the new icon because it is away
from the design environment now.

Could you wait until the sample is completed?

Thanks!

--
Kentaro Ohkouchi <nanasess@fsm.ne.jp>