From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: gnu.com? Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:04:30 -0800 Message-ID: <479EFA2E.9080105@emf.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1201595399 15446 80.91.229.12 (29 Jan 2008 08:29:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:29:59 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 29 09:30:19 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JJlrG-0003T2-Fk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:30:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJlqp-0004f3-Ho for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:29:51 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JJlqk-0004cx-2X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:29:46 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JJlqi-0004bx-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:29:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JJlqg-0004bs-MR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:29:43 -0500 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JJlqg-0002R7-3v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:29:42 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.42inc.com ([205.149.0.25]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JJlqe-0002WS-CM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:29:40 -0500 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.5 X-TFF-CGPSA-Filter-42inc: Scanned X-42-Virus-Scanned: by 42 Antivirus -- Found to be clean. Original-Received: from [69.236.72.159] (account lord@emf.net HELO [192.168.1.64]) by mail.42inc.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPA id 21006683; Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:29:23 -0800 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060808) X-detected-kernel: by mx20.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:87745 Archived-At: * ESR's effort to initiate process reform for GNU Emacs sparked some larger conversation about the GNU project generally. A resulting idea has reached the "half-baked" stage in my mind and I would like to share it before I explore it further (and to help decide whether I should). Please forgive me for not trying to attribute every point made in the list conversation and I note for the record that the mailing list archives for the past month or so should make it easy to figure out who exactly I am "quasiquoting," so to speak. I am freely combining my own ideas with several that have passed on this list. I have some original thoughts here, I suppose, but they are intertwingled with what others have said recently. * The aim of the GNU project is to develop an operating system. This goal has not yet been met. GNU has achieved "most" of the goal, in some sense. Using little besides GNU software and a kernel, usually the Linux kernel, of course, a free software operating system can be assembled. Yet, the GNU project does not itself distribute an operating system. Users must either do a lot of work to assemble their own, or rely on Debian or on one of the commercial GNU/Linux vendors, or rely on a small number of poorly resourced hobbiest or volunteer projects. No commercial vendor of free software is delivering applications advertised to run on "the GNU operating system". GNU's early objectives of unix-but-then-a-more-lispy-environment lie by the wayside. * Though there was once a fairly clear "target" for what the GNU system would one day be, both technology and free software have advanced so far, in the meanwhile, that there is no longer any clear picture of the GNU project's target. Early on, GNU was defined by a simple task list that (more or less) listed the differences between what GNU was already distributing and the then contemporary versions of unix. GNU had "info" and "tex" but needed an nroff, for example. GNU at one point needed a good shell program. GNU would need a window system, just as the unix vendors had such. For fun, the GNU task list asked for a flight simulator. Most of these boxes got checked off (i.e. "done enough, for now"). Some slapstick craziness delayed a kernel. The linux kernel arrived. Commercialization happened. And a mere decade and a bit later the definition of "operating system" (in the sense of what people expect when they install one) has expanded greatly. The task list has not kept up. This is no surprise because: * A strictly volunteer project has difficulty catching-up or, better, leap-frogging the contemporary definition of an operating system, because today there is commercial demand for free software hackers. When GNU began, jobs describable as "developing free software" were almost non-existent. I, for one -- and I'm sure I am not alone -- volunteered to try to shrink the GNU task list partly to force a point. "We," (if I may), sought to create a complete, useful, truly free operating system *in part* because that would help create something in scarce supply at the time: a professional career path in which we would not be obligated to collaborate in somebody's plan to seize power over users (at least in the sense of the "four freedoms"). So, "we" (some of us, at least) "worked for free" in part so that later we might be able to work professionally without sacrificing our ethics. Times have changed and while there are still (it seems, from reading the trade press and studies) more programmers who *want* to write only free software than there are who are paid to write free software -- still -- demand for very talented free software programmers is fiercely competitive. Very few people with lots of established talent need to struggle to find employment writing free software. Therefore, almost everyone with lots of established talent has only limited time to volunteer for GNU, other than where such volunteerism happens to coincide with the wishes of their employer. * The definition of "GNU project" has become confusing. With an unclear target, and extremely limited volunteer resources, GNU is in a rough spot when it comes to leading cooperation on building -- well -- "the GNU operating system". The GDB project should work with the project to improve the Emacs interface to GDB, for example -- but there is no obvious way (other than catch-as-catch-can) to decide the priority between that work and work on "tabs" support in Emacs. The obligations of GNU maintainers have some firm rail-guards -- but there seems to be no clear way to settle priorities with respect to clear goals. * In the name of freedom, GNU needs to complete its work. Debian and, even more the commercial GNU/Linux distributions have, on balance, positively advanced the cause of software freedom -- at least for now. They are not, however, clearly reliable sources of software freedom, at least in the GNU sense. The original GNU vision has yet to fully materialize and no project, aside from GNU itself, seems to want to do so. * The FSF ("owner" in some sense of GNU) remains, after all of these years, a qualified leadership. I need not rehearse, I hope, but merely refer to the FSF's very long term continuing success in fostering sister organizations around the world, in influencing relevant legislation, in GPLv3 consensus-building, in simply remaining afloat, in spreading the word about software freedom generally, and on an on. * RMS is neither immortal nor does he possess infinite energy. Recent messages from RMS highlight his personal and singular role in defining what "the GNU project" means. This is appropriate in many senses but it is not a lasting solution, nor one that can any longer secure sufficient volunteer labor to complete GNU. -------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore..... * I propose the creation of gnu.com, a for-profit majority owned subsidiary of the FSF, roughly analogous to mozilla.com. The purpose of gnu.com shall be to define, complete, distribute, and support the GNU operating system, on a for-profit basis. The for-profit but only majority owned structure enables fund-raising to pay GNU developers competitive wages without sacrificing the cause of software freedom. -------------------------------------------------------------- Random thoughts: * Chartering the organization will be difficult, of course. Probably similarly difficult to making GPLv3. Perhaps similar techniques of consensus-building will apply. * The FSF's approach to labor appears from the outside these days to be exemplary. E.g., it is a pro-union shop and offers decent benefits (as far as I can tell). gnu.com should do no less. Moreover, as majority owner, FSF can ensure that gnu.com does its fair share to support FSF workers (or if not FSF, the union :-). * Reformulating the vision and then drilling it down to a task list for GNU is an exciting project -- the danger is that it may be *too* exciting with people seeking influence for all kinds of disagreeable reasons. The success of the GPLv3 project gives some hope here to keep an orderly process. * Though current commercial GNU/Linux vendors are not exempt from criticism -- gnu.com is not "against" these vendors. Rather, it should be understood as resuming the project from which they got there start, and further advancing the kind of forward-looking development project from which they took their opportunities. -------------------------------------------------------------- Invitation: This message is not precisely on-topic for the emacs-devel list, yet I have not witnessed any better audience and this one seems ripe for it. Forgive me if I accomplish nothing other than either wasting bandwidth on an igored message or starting a flame-war. I hope the outcome is otherwise. I volunteer to pay attention to what people say in response to this admittedly "half-baked" idea either on-list or in private responses -- and to try to do something intelligent in response, presuming a general agreement about the cause of software freedom and the value of the GNU project. People can contact me at lord@emf.net -------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Yes, of course I want a personal stake in this -- a substantial role and ample rewards. The idea, however, stands on its own -- with or without me. Regards, -t