From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Summary and next steps for (package-initialize) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 09:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46e80edb-399d-4063-8772-1f21be553eda@default> References: <83tw12cocz.fsf@gnu.org> <87mv6uxkig.fsf@lylat> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1503248103 7682 195.159.176.226 (20 Aug 2017 16:55:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 16:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Radon Rosborough , Emacs developers To: Yuri Khan , Alex Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 20 18:54:56 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1djTUz-0001Pn-BT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 18:54:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38275 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djTV6-00060T-4M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 12:55:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60558) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djTUs-0005xX-28 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 12:54:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djTUq-00032o-5h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 12:54:46 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:47845) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1djTUm-0002zk-Be; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 12:54:40 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v7KGsau7014333 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 20 Aug 2017 16:54:37 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v7KGsZnA029169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 20 Aug 2017 16:54:36 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v7KGsXH8010542; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 16:54:33 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6774.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217634 Archived-At: > > There could be a link (and perhaps keybinding) on the splash > > screen/tutorial, where Emacs could ask the user a few questions and > > create an init file for the user. Possible questions include: > > > > Would you like this file in ~/ or ~/.emacs.d (.emacs vs init.el)? > > > > Would you like to change some defaults? (This could help out with the > > (IMO correct) notion that Emacs has some poor defaults while leaving > > those alone for users that don't use this template.) > > > > Would you like to use a separate file for `custom-file'? > > > > Would you like to set up the package system? > > > > I believe that this would be a step forward in accommodating new users. >=20 > This amounts to asking the new user to perform customization up front. > A new user will not have enough knowledge to answer these questions. > Further, he or she may feel intimidated and choose a different editor, > one that works out of the box. >=20 > It is better to have reasonably sane defaults and let the user > customize when he or she is ready. +1 - what Yuri said. And this is not just about new users. Such an interrogation is not friendly for new or old users, even if old users might have a better chance of understanding what is meant. There must be a way to make package.el behavior failsafe, simple, and without gotchas, for users. That should be the goal. Whether that can be done in a backward-compatible way is, IMHO, less important than making sure the new behavior is solid. Using the package system should be opt-in, and it should be simple and unintimidating. (Just one opinion.)