From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 05:17:00 +0300 Message-ID: <45098d13-2770-4a19-6f82-b22276eb51c8@yandex.ru> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a736wyed.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F7AD0CB-FF83-4244-BD77-7E0460A77762@icloud.com> <87wo6a7abj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o8rlbnic.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="47528"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=a9bastien_Gendre?= , Emacs developers To: Po Lu , =?UTF-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 21 04:18:46 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiUo-000CHn-Qp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 04:18:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46898 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiUn-0006VS-3m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:18:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42072) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiTC-0005Qb-MO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:17:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiTB-0000ut-Sj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:17:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::431]:43451) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiTB-0000uB-Ev for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:17:05 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id i10so14608294wrv.10 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:17:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XjnOodP3CZFQha7DzjuigR3x+CoPP9VIKR0b3GzfroA=; b=cT5yXqCEQ8xx4kTLfekcNpzuc6OgVXqaPWXYVuDNl2zg+XNJ7a4iQa5ec9xlQ2EdJh 4DutoQphm148WUL1DUsOWVj2cVyJza+/Moio2MU/8Tn+/eWRkP3l3N3rRR8uj3XT3fEx 8FayZQq5aMftxTcM9uTfKLRNY46nxK3Ton1lJoBc4WRtVeEjbghalusNpBmfn9jG+I2Q yoEIzLwSA+/2ADpWL23vLIs4oH/hI5jJepA5bl9bpNxlzvVezAIUjVgVD6wJDFrIPi8b xH0zBr718lQMuWk3Xz1hEURWO80sNBZVjAHZx9LtkzRa1q/lWs1T5loB5GxVUCHKzcMi Xk6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=XjnOodP3CZFQha7DzjuigR3x+CoPP9VIKR0b3GzfroA=; b=YfGxf7ArsXJw63ru62Kta/GBKDD1OM9B4L2e6fSi8lZqjl0CTj/px8uDWYGc1ZpZTF YiKnab5pGLtNs5kYvXmUNBCvxLsI+EqvbZPx/90cYSSUUCCsjCKtXToOFlnH3cy4QHsA oQ/EyDz5mg+mue1h/P8LAT0N/F7VZZ+31Vo+lzil8U9He+BYNA3SSkRMsqJmFvS4VzEo 9nSPHJNDHIpEoWgxRp1rv+OyCH3aoc//i3TqundyY1lX5qmp8F+gX0UwweUakuek2pyq urVC/iTOapDRKG5FKzQkj421uNH9sfb9/VO8A/LrjY+WFJ6w3jBFZGcf+L5EQdsVpo1v qeFA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaUAdStJPjhxF5cmZYgqkLtDI/kIlb3Z2Q8aW7paVsTK6P5IRG0 a7xX/WL7gGKy5cqCaD3mnqA4+a8dBl0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLMbMu2gDTIyHXOYlzE9XKAaWSKzJkvtqSPfPzNyVxOa1QyXwkyQl8eWqpLztzMGHBEYns3kQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e7ca:: with SMTP id e10mr22160508wrn.18.1587435423564; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y9sm1489675wmm.26.2020.04.20.19.17.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:17:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87o8rlbnic.fsf@yahoo.com> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::431; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x431.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::431 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247446 Archived-At: On 21.04.2020 05:06, Po Lu wrote: >> No, it doesn’t - see previous comments. > Yes it does. I can't be bothered to put an extra line in my .emacs for > every tiny change users decide they want. Please keep in mind that if we hope to make Emacs reach, say, 30% share among programmers, the extra 25% would be new users. So for all questions about changing defaults, we should ask ourselves, do we prioritize the existing 5% (or 3%, as SO poll says) userbase that will naturally continue shrinking over the years, or whether we prefer to make life easier and more productive for the users that should come later. And it's not like existing, long-time users can't grow to like the new defaults (even after a certain amount of grumbling). I think the Xref example shows that.