From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jason Rumney Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Tooltips on w32 slow and strange Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:07:24 +0000 Message-ID: <4210A28C.7020500@gnu.org> References: <016b01c51163$45e1d630$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> <16186.217.194.34.123.1108368907.squirrel@wwws.franken.de> <4210762C.9030203@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0865325589==" X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1108388236 22017 80.91.229.2 (14 Feb 2005 13:37:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:37:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs Devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 14 14:37:15 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D0gPR-0006qt-74 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:37:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D0gey-00056c-Eq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:53:08 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1D0gG3-0002C7-5U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:27:24 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1D0gFx-000274-8F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:27:18 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D0gEw-00011W-Or for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:26:15 -0500 Original-Received: from [217.207.198.106] (helo=exchange.integrasp.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1D0fwj-0007jW-Sq; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:07:26 -0500 Original-Received: from ASSP-nospam (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by exchange.integrasp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 18LH0LFY; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:07:24 -0000 Original-Received: from 192.168.111.196 ([192.168.111.196] helo=[192.168.111.196]) by ASSP-nospam ; 14 Feb 05 13:07:24 -0000 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Original-To: David Kastrup In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:33379 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:33379 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0865325589== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080600090302000201020401" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080600090302000201020401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Kastrup wrote: >Jason Rumney writes: > > > >>Emacs uses frames for its tooltips on all platforms. To change this on >>Windows would make it more difficult to maintain, and would lose >>functionality. >> >> >Are you sure about that? Under X11, tooltips come without any >decoration and without any impact on the focus (I have >focus-follows-mouse policy). I never noticed _any_ problem with them. > > Yes I'm sure, the Windows implementation was based on the X11 implementation. They are special frames in that they have the properties you observe, but they are still frames and you can use all of Emacs' non-input related display features in them. >If users of Emacs on Windows experience similar effects > They're not quite as bad as XEmacs' problems I think, there seems to be a bug in the code that makes sure the tooltip doesn't get focus which causes problems when there are multiple frames. Apart from that they appear a bit slow on slow machines due to being drawn by the normal Emacs redisplay instead of being simple fixed plaintext like in other programs. >At least the X11 tooltips on Emacs provide no functionality >whatsoever except popping up some text in a single font AFAICS. No >face support, no clickable areas, nothing. > I'm sure I've seen face support used in tooltips. Maybe only text properties work, the face is probably forced to "tooltip". >So if there is a function for popping them up in the system, I can't see what we could lose by >using it. > > I don't think there is a function for popping them up in the system. Many armchair critics are not aware of the distinction between Microsoft's proprietary C++ GUI toolkit (MFC) and what is available directly from the OS APIs, so we often get slated for not using feature X, when reimplementing it using the OS APIs is non-trivial. --------------080600090302000201020401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Kastrup wrote: 
Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:

  
Emacs uses frames for its tooltips on all platforms. To change this on
Windows would make it more difficult to maintain, and would lose
functionality.
    

Are you sure about that?  Under X11, tooltips come without any
decoration and without any impact on the focus (I have
focus-follows-mouse policy).  I never noticed _any_ problem with them.

Yes I'm sure, the Windows implementation was based on the X11 implementation. They are special frames in that they have the properties you observe, but they are still frames and you can use all of Emacs' non-input related display features in them.

If users of Emacs on Windows experience similar effects

They're not quite as bad as XEmacs' problems I think, there seems to be a bug in the code that makes sure the tooltip doesn't get focus which causes problems when there are multiple frames. Apart from that they appear a bit slow on slow machines due to being drawn by the normal Emacs redisplay instead of being simple fixed plaintext like in other programs.

At least the X11 tooltips on Emacs provide no functionality
whatsoever except popping up some text in a single font AFAICS.  No
face support, no clickable areas, nothing.

I'm sure I've seen face support used in tooltips. Maybe only text properties work, the face is probably forced to "tooltip".

So if there is a function for popping them up in the system, I can't see what we could lose by
using it.

I don't think there is a function for popping them up in the system. Many armchair critics are not aware of the distinction between Microsoft's proprietary C++ GUI toolkit (MFC) and what is available directly from the OS APIs, so we often get slated for not using feature X, when reimplementing it using the OS APIs is non-trivial.

--------------080600090302000201020401-- --===============0865325589== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Emacs-devel mailing list Emacs-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel --===============0865325589==--