From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: martin rudalics Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Patch proposal: display symbol source code in help buffers Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:22:03 +0200 Message-ID: <3eb6b3d4-b393-d27e-3611-ee353f98be0c@gmx.at> References: <83bl4n3hys.fsf@gnu.org> <87fstz3g6z.fsf@no.workgroup> <9ada9a31-4e44-7941-e9a2-ada86ba4e36e@gmx.at> <3438b87f-b24a-3bc3-871f-84818868d445@gmx.at> <87lf3q2ahs.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10406"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Juri Linkov , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 23 10:23:21 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mTK0n-0002Za-B9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:23:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47554 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mTK0l-0006cd-Cr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 04:23:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34148) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mTJzd-0005di-Pv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 04:22:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:42263) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mTJzb-0005Zb-Of for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 04:22:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1632385324; bh=Y8THmcc7Nk6g7AxRA7JfmXlr+uvFwxwbIuIC95pEPWE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Es3eT5am5Ukv1+eHY6cGvmi/t8KJIHDTBdZsXXK4GgfuNEplq9jc1tHTCGoVdYoFA XgQKvWnJIfurCU1Nmf9cFM0KYmCVlVdBLwb9HsDA1gmNtnDFgF4fgeUJROZO9cLWtr Zqc57K6ZUAGmsIBg43tQ8emYGrags/apKgSIBVHc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([212.95.5.181]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M72sJ-1mVE4R2UiF-008Yf2; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:22:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:twuX45gayYCZSmr6bi4hQmJG0o6zK9hlHYdlijsMS/VkR0uwf3s ODwFgItfRQ0zRDJpyLOjVQ4IaeHWFZbfioITTAE3kxy+PZf/DZvEof2ban+6YuRBKKOSzVn JPk8BTvL37S43YwImM6KwnvAx26O7EuVkmqTeA82WNKlEOyiCpwQlxoiPWGdIwZ0Frg8HbD tvhQfwM18CPnbALjBN+cA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:56z9VEeCDJI=:tqTfWDd5dFgj9HFNRTUObE M4ATGQQjpMSIgzaurWAfuJSzW5Z1htDjuaSHumVWHYVyYAIxgWncdiZFESLD6n7QWQQ/Q4gaF pVlmBO/WH4lTQfFQNGGJBi6B1pSTcZ/M26zdoUX2UsYFg02DQqLBXpKbAHSe+l3z/cT2EqaXt Q27sQro2s3qPxPeKKyUgShW/CtecCIUOaawcweW0/DTZpnA9ECl/4qvJFouthTIlDxenZHgcc xex9L8z11NuNQIKuW+BQnzZQGfUjFWc/3gCuz7lKanWZxGc3DsbNbxRHdRBeymOx3GOnnN/7d dh39EzVcX4ykVhq7S3XwDXhTFxOXmaO1LgKO7F3bBzAMv7eqGVqvE3tbZFYcxDaKM/ul9RBfn +ISxZo66329+SC3gswxebsLpoycQk11E6+/FK9NBhkKg3rB4p7pRMs9eUtEkPDJXV2FDKZcQ7 MgT2gT9x9FQR8SDblitUDN95q9MnniHvG4iSlbfX2J7gwiA+ozffsqVZXWvUx9hVCHUTQzFqf dziDGaIsdMjPGOrNa6Wk9lQrH93eXXaLpKdBMJ7acbPbJWvymuBHgRcY/qGfs9R6mVi87cJ/G cob++PADAmqz9Wb9QPI6LMJPYNmdotTbJfTQSBSZOCYQO9cfXA/4+YWQCxp1emq7gapU815gd Ka2jLebIcjImto62ff+P1ca6kLPf6GNXoeCc3SwWKftH7OYd7MKs9lB0poj4c8Cro814AOKmm 47ySCaUIE2sg/G/ZhUKI2eRw8MXNNk4p6Jzu7unLzELvrU09SKR8Uu3Nv4doi1ZpywkRniIZ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.20; envelope-from=rudalics@gmx.at; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275356 Archived-At: >> Help-buffer windows are as a rule displayed via 'display-buffer' and are >> easily recognizable because their buffer is always called *Help*. So >> you can simply add a 'window-height' action alist entry for them which >> is considerably more versatile than what you propose above. > > Yes, I know; but think of new users comming from other editors and applications, > having no experience with Lisp and never heard of conses and alists. Such users likely do not run 'temp-buffer-resize-mode' either. > I use display-buffer-alist to achieve something with *Help* buffer (and some > others) myself. I posted that snippet in the other thread I don't know if all > that stuff existed back in time when original poster posted his bug repport > (2011), but at least nowadays, the bug should be marked as resolved, since it is > possible to tell Emacs to reuse Help buffer and window, instead of opening new > ones. I got lost. Which bug report is that? > However, I don't think my solution to that problem, same as you suggest here, > is very convenient to new users. People are used to see some option they can > toggle on/off, some slider they can pull left right, some value they can pull > from a list or enter into some box. I think it is more helpful to see some > variable with clear and descriptive name, I think new users would appreciate > that. But that is just my opinion. The solution I suggested is for users who know well what they want. New users should be content with the default and, after experimenting with it for some time, 'temp-buffer-resize-mode'. BTW, most Emacs developers use the default, I presume. > Anyway, I have read both threads you have refered too. One of them, the > Florians, (Bug#9054), is completely unrelated to what this patch does. Well it > is about help buffer, but there you are concerned with wath happens *before* user > enters the help buffer and in which way user will come to that buffer. > >> Where to pop up the location of the source and how to get rid of >> it is a question we currently discuss in Bug#9054 > > And that is exactly what I say above; this patch is completely not concerned > with where and how you will pop that window and source code file. I am concerned > with what happens in a help buffer, after user requested help, *not* how user come > to that point. I don't even pop a source file; just code for a function or var. Sorry but did you really read bug report 9054? That report says Two windows. Run `describe-function' on a function: The help buffer pops up in the other window. `other-window' and click the link to display the source file: my original buffer is gone. Very annoying. What I would like: Either a function that displays the source for the function at point in the other window or for the *Help* buffer to open the source file in the same window (i.e. the window which displays the *Help* buffer). so it clearly talks about what happens *after* the user entered the help buffer and not as you claim above "there you are concerned with wath happens *before* user enters the help buffer and in which way user will come to that buffer". > I wish to make help buffer more usable, because I wisth to go away from Helpful > and I see no reason why we should wait for something unrelated you guys had 10 > years to get consensus on but didn't :). Sorry, that one was hard not to pick on > :). > > I know I sound biased, but the suggested patch works above my personal > expectations. Suddenly the help buffer acts like a code browser. I can't speak for others but IMHO a code browser should operate only on the code itself and not on a copy of it. I wouldn't even want to clone a buffer or use an indirect buffer for that purpose. For me it's an essential aspect of free software that browsing and hacking code go hand in hand. > I really > suggest you to try and click a bit around. It wasn't my intention, since I never > do that in Helpful. I even don't know if it is possible there, but due to > back/forward functionality in built-in help buffer, it works really nice. Sorry but I won't be of much help in this regard. martin