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That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -29 X-Spam_score: -3.0 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.543, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255312 Archived-At: On 12.09.2020 09:12, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Cc: rekado@elephly.net, ghe@sdf.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, >> drew.adams@oracle.com >> From: Dmitry Gutov >> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 00:00:48 +0300 >> >>> As long as we keep this on the menu and the tool bar, there will be no >>> reason for a "war". >> >> So there will be contradiction between the menu and the keyboard? > > Yes. We already have quite a few of them, so one or two more cannot > hurt. I'm looking to improve the current state of affairs. Also: confusion about certain basic operations are likely to hit new users harder than confusions about other things. >>> How can it be confusing that 2 different commands produce different >>> results? Why isn't it confusing today, when we already have these 2 >>> commands? >> >> The menu item doesn't exactly say which command it is invoking. > > It does, if you invoke "C-h k". Irrelevant, as long as we're talking about new user experience. > If you don't ask Emacs what the menu item invokes, then the text of > the menu item and the help-echo string are the only description you > get, and that is so for all the other menu items. So there's nothing > new here. Hence we shouldn't create a confusing menu item like this. >> So I think that statement is missing the point: we should endeavor for >> predictable and consistent sets of menu items, key bindings, and other >> features. > > I agree, but the criteria for "predictable and consistent" might be > something other than "make the keybindings and menus invoke identical > commands". Because if that's the criteria, we are already in > violation of them. That doesn't mean we're not allowed to improve things in specific cases.