From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:47:02 +0300 Message-ID: <3bd13d85-70a9-dfb4-254f-c18107a3c632@yandex.ru> References: <83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org> <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com> <83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org> <838sdfdzxo.fsf@gnu.org> <20200912121603.bsp53vgfwj3y62in@Ergus> <831rj7dvhg.fsf@gnu.org> <20200912131802.fiowctrzc2yx4ozu@Ergus> <83y2lfcdq2.fsf@gnu.org> <83d02pdb7b.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19288"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: ghe@sdf.org, spacibba@aol.com, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 13 19:47:48 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHW6N-0004v9-HC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 19:47:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57092 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHW6M-0003Hh-C3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:47:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44244) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHW5n-0002pE-9t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:47:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::230]:33538) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHW5l-00051F-6X; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:47:10 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id k25so16648427ljk.0; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 10:47:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=u2AphnuErUyFUJUEdT8WH/vO+trGitD4Otcd4SiaHa8=; b=kyxHs2lozHno7TJXZ6TLUwbTczPFKV/+z6UUfGL/PGGYjLiUN++iLPahr51yOhxG3X UBmC9Kp42tt8WJuCnEhKekP8esFq4lay9tqyUtRaLZK/rIQxX1CInmW6FB3hBP7535XH NTQhfOMozNLlmFek61QrP8xwwrx1itmUcrTJQjlrLXO5IYtJfR0BHEV4j7Ss/jPEho0n /FNNNKz1f3CCGMIdOo63TCL44pOaZhRYiklLDu4K8hHf7mvH+STj1RuTprbOwNVL8C3W rSriy8I8h3OJHf+o0rVPzpYi6Z0cA7I5OAJhqtFu63PkcTQnos0uVuhjd4awNOzDoJIi 464Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=u2AphnuErUyFUJUEdT8WH/vO+trGitD4Otcd4SiaHa8=; b=NEMPbBeBXkJd4X9VOgByJSnN8UnRJaTxwFdYLkXw3DziFFfThS3bSY0Zj6K/XDi4lw s6g0sT+MIIf8y8WhR3Ol7Tx4p47abs/5MXscXpD+yek9N7HZ0ko8gpKsJMHZpeOyhoM/ ++O++nLZ8Hnh9WyQszuT9SKGpWH+xHdVfpJg1z35dMAwmi6i2gmH73/n+J7/w7/LAFlR Jcx1azR/pJOrobEkoUPfnue13uUL97YBbUAPRd/Fuo54VO/8kANy1YEwANhZVbrk9GaA IDbyKq0poPD3jkzGEslJD0OVhIMIr3n37AJzz7g8+QxzBeLI4P+sqJGKW4Dx55j8+qDz 64og== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531M5ajPofk3z2lCknvcUSbT2vvehX8N+iPPG3ouvngVydv+CDvY PFjBTbD2+kKjmJsLUs+xsLopj34zzpw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyLE1kXy3D5fjfVEvthvxC1yNtcvG3KKH3RDWiTez3uauy3qMv28OB2wI0cLNQgdlXQu4UCzA== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a36b:: with SMTP id i11mr3550945ljn.219.1600019226436; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 10:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w3sm2589259lfe.214.2020.09.13.10.47.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 13 Sep 2020 10:47:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83d02pdb7b.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::230; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x230.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255542 Archived-At: On 13.09.2020 17:04, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> I don't see what's so complicated you see about icomplete-mode. If you >> have problems when trying to use it, perhaps you should ask questions? > > It isn't complicated for me, I'm familiar with icomplete-mode for > quite some time. I think it will be complicated and confusing for > newcomers, especially if they expect a very different style of > completion. Perhaps. But it's a bridge between what the oldies > Company is much closer to what they expect, I think. But you didn't even care to acknowledge the company-based example in my previous email? >> To my knowledge, if we want to come close to what those other editors >> show, our current best bet is icomplete-vertical (or something similar >> to it) PLUS a packages that moves the minibuffer to either the center or >> the top of the frame (or makes it seem live the minibuffer has been >> moved, of course). > > Those have an annoying misfeature of causing jumps in the window above > the minibuffer. No, they don't. That's the point. Did you look at the screencast gif? > Other possibilities exist, but my point is that if we want to offer a > better completion to make it easier for newcomers who expect something > like that, we should work on a completion style that they expect, or > something very similar, and icomplete-mode isn't. Have you tried icomplete-vertical? Whether we choose icomplete or Ivy, though, the issue of being able to offer a UI where the minibuffer is overlayed on top of the frame is something we should work on. And it's something tied to a lower level functionality than just completion styles (the minibuffer, the echo area, and the frames display logic).