From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Aquamacs distro for OS X like behavior Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:27:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3b9c4e2f33d37fed55f640dcafbc8d65@gmail.com> References: <7ca1709813602da58a139cee58fb4c63@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1112657901 2135 80.91.229.2 (4 Apr 2005 23:38:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:38:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 05 01:38:18 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DIb80-0004wg-N7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 01:37:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DIagm-0006hP-Gh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:09:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DIaeG-0006Fh-Hy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:06:25 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DIae5-00069i-Ug for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:06:18 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DIae2-00066I-Ky for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:06:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [64.233.184.205] (helo=wproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DIayY-0001Jw-My for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:27:22 -0400 Original-Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so330211wra for ; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=Pb64bGBo6X8RyJvlRDIQQBu5AQXdB5oZ8MwiEbL8rfcqs2ZEzoTOYN7XF5vD2k1lLutmZWvPOB/QKg1t/sPy15tiE32ntwPbD5OU8ChYAzkY9fv4B5EU5SHLOiZhuBFisiLE4TfoYFHlg1Gw4j77dcHhF7eopTIb8a/+EC9nOWs= Original-Received: by 10.54.25.74 with SMTP id 74mr527173wry; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?10.0.0.58? ([82.20.44.75]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 7sm1009517wrl.2005.04.04.16.27.15; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Original-To: David Kastrup X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:35564 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:35564 On 4 Apr 2005, at 18:47, David Kastrup wrote: > > There is considerable leeway in those goals. For example, different > file selection dialogs and similar are quite common, and in fact, the > whole widgetry stuff (like customize and co) could be made to make use > of the native widgets where available. From a UI and an OS X perspective, customization buffers should definitely go into proper dialogues with native widgets. > > Well, we do have something like customization themes IIRC, but I don't > know their extent and how they are used. If a whole set of defaults > were to be changed by a single theme (and could be changed back at > will), then an out-of-the-box configuration that was different on > MacOSX would be quite tolerable. I don't know if an out-of-the-box configuration for the default Emacs is needed - the idea of a distribution like what we demonstrate with Aquamacs might already do the job. People with other needs - a cross-platform compatible Emacs - will then be happy to use the 'conservative' version instead. I see a trend towards the first - UI integration - because it's more comfortable when you use a lot of applications (and people use more applications, not less), and there has been a great uptake on mobile devices: people use laptops much more than they used to (say, 7 years ago), and people don't switch from one system to another as often. Of course, individual mileage will vary! Either way, merely using a 'theme' with the on-board means, for example to make customization buffers look different, will IMHO not tweak the application UI enough. A user interface is more than just pretty buttons and a choice of colors. If you look at the way themes work in GNOME / KDE, you'll find huge emphasis on the graphics, and only little theme-defined behavior and pretty much no theme-defined layout. Successful OS X software pretty much always uses the native user interface. Even though OS X has superb Java integration (at least for not-quite-cutting-edge Java versions), we don't see many wide-spread Swing based applications. Similarly, the XUL based browser versions from Mozilla aren't as popular as Safari and Camino - even though they offer good or better functionality. Consequently, I'm arguing for native widgets wherever possible. For a new project - or one with less tradition and less importance, there is stuff like wxWidgets. In this case, I would be grateful if someone would implement more Carbon (or Cocoa) based UI stuff, and if better internal interfaces existed, for example to handle scrollbars correctly. This is stuff only developers experienced with Emacs code - yes, you! - can implement. - Dave