From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Bikeshedding go! Why is unbound? Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:17:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3F4DBCDA95C84539A162423B934037DE@us.oracle.com> References: <87sjx7z7w4.fsf@telefonica.net> <83pqsbmf6j.fsf@gnu.org> <87k4ijz07h.fsf@telefonica.net> <2460D97DEA4047B3B9DF92C4A80981EF@us.oracle.com> <57BF13882D6E494286547F293FE9D03B@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1294853761 15349 80.91.229.12 (12 Jan 2011 17:36:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:36:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Stuart Hacking' , =?iso-8859-1?Q?'=D3scar_Fuentes'?= , 'Lennart Borgman' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Deniz Dogan'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 12 18:35:55 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pd4bu-00029E-OU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:35:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58425 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pd4bs-0000rS-EK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:35:48 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=34309 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pd4ZF-0006uw-FT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:33:11 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pd4KC-0003aq-9m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:17:33 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:61175) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pd4KC-0003ac-1z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:17:32 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p0CHHS7W024770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:17:29 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p0C5K54o023908; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:17:27 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt005.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 919615611294852644; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:17:24 -0800 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:17:23 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcuycRL/FIkCcehoRS2MGZn0A1fTQQABkc2Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:134467 Archived-At: > isn't M-f4 what most desktop environments, e.g. KDE and Gnome, > use to close a window by default? To a new Emacs user, which we > have to consider, M-f4 *not* closing the window on a Windows > system could potentially be confusing and maybe even irritating. Same argument for all of the other Windows keys: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/126449 http://www.autohotkey.com/wiki/index.php?title=Standard_Windows_Hotkeys http://www.techpraveen.com/2008/08/keyboard-shortcuts-for-windows.html There are no doubt similar keys for KDE, Gnome etc. Or you could argue for keeping just the common subset. Where do you draw the line? I would draw it right here and now: let's not bind _any_ such keys in Emacs by default. There's already enough dispute between Emacs and window managers over keys such as ALT-TAB (hello, Lennart). I do think we should make it easy (and clear how) to choose whether to give all power to the window manager or all (almost) to Emacs. Maybe we do that well enough already - dunno. I'm more interested in Emacs newbies learning an Emacs key such as `C-x 5 0' to remove a frame than I am in reproducing a window-mgr key that does essentially the same thing (perhaps at a different level). You seem to be more worried about keeping newbies warm and comfortable with what they are already used to. The bike shed is blue. Also, we already discussed letting Emacs users use menu accelerator keys, so that they could do what is in all of the menus using the keyboard (without tmm, lacarte, etc.). That, IMO, is a better approach to the current question. It should be enough to help newbies along by providing menu acceleration. We should not need to provide all of the window-mgr keys they are used to, by default. (Yes, I realize (a) that these are different things and (b) that the user still needs to find `Delete Frame' or `Quit' in the Emacs `File' menu.) Not to mention that Windows newbies still have the little window-mgr menu from the upper left of the title bar (whatever it's called) to do things like close a window-mgr window. How much do we need to reproduce the outside-Emacs environment for Emacs newbies? There are enough ways to delete a window-mgr window. Just one opinion. > The new user maybe doesn't know that she can make new key > bindings herself and even if she knows she *can* make new > bindings, maybe she doesn't know what command to bind it to. Emacs is a dish you learn to appreciate. MacDo it isn't. There is no royal or fast-food road to fine cuisine, fine music, or anything else rich and deep. > save-buffers-kill-terminal probably isn't what first comes to mind. Gee, and I thought that Alt-f4 just deleted the window. Or do you want a Windows (KDE, Gnome) key for closing/killing the app as well? > 4. No one is saying we should bind M-f4 because it is unused. It's > just that it could have a very useful default binding for Windows > users which just happens to be unused today. OK, good. But there are plenty more "very useful default bindings for Windows users". You give Johnny this one by default and he thinks it's unfair that you don't also give him that one. And he's got a point there... That's the way Johnny is (like the rest of us). Better he should learn Emacs.