From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ben Wing Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: C-l while in menu? Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 03:42:44 -0700 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <3CC68C24.20704@666.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080406030800070904070402" X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1019646290 32341 127.0.0.1 (24 Apr 2002 11:04:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 11:04:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Miles Bader , Pavel =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan=EDk?= ,Stefan Monnier , gerd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 170KZu-0008PW-00 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:04:50 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 170KbY-0008J6-00 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:06:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 170KEq-00024s-00; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:43:04 -0400 Original-Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 170KD4-0001zb-00; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 06:41:14 -0400 Original-Received: from sdn-ap-007caburbp1726.dialsprint.net ([63.184.70.202] helo=666.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 170KCs-0000yL-00; Wed, 24 Apr 2002 03:41:03 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020314 Netscape6/6.2.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us Original-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:3174 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:3174 --------------080406030800070904070402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eli Zaretskii wrote: >On 23 Apr 2002, Miles Bader wrote: > >>Ben Wing writes: >> >>>the fact is that things work quite well when you have only a meta key. >>>e.g. meta+letter is an accelerator only when such a menu exists; >>>otherwise, you get the regular binding -- and even then you can >>>retrieve the shadowed binding with shift+meta+letter. >>> >>Do people really like this? >> > >I don't. One ``feature'' that particularly annoys me is that, as Ben >described, pressing Alt alone and then releasing it activates the menu >bar. So if I press Alt and then change my mind, I need to remember to >type ESC or something similar before I can type text again. That's a >real dumper on fast typing. > this is only on for windows, and you can turn this off, of course. > > >>It sounds astonishly annoying to have >>random meta keys stolen by the menus, especially since emacs has many >>useful and common commands on M-letter keys. E.g., doesn't the `File' >>menu steal `M-f', the `Buffers' menu `M-b', etc.? >> > >I think such a mode is inappropriate for Emacs because our menu bar can >change dynamically as a function of what you type. So in Emacs, what >keys will be stolen is not entirely predictable, which makes this even a >worse idea, IMHO. > >I'd suggest to find a modifier other than Meta, and use that instead. >Something like Super or Hyper, for example; we support them on Windows as >well. For tty's, we could have some prefix key instead. > you guys are so X-centric in your thinking. there is no other key in Windows, really. people *always* expect the Alt key to traverse to menus, and it's no exception here. as i said before [but it got purposely chopped off], most of the shadowed keys are available elsewhere -- M-f is also Ctrl-right, M-b is Ctrl-left, M-v [the View menu] is Next, etc. Furthermore, those arrow/cursor-key bindings are more intuitive, and more standard, than the old-style Emacs bindings. i designed things intentionally so they most all work like this. > > >_______________________________________________ >Emacs-devel mailing list >Emacs-devel@gnu.org >http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel > --------------080406030800070904070402 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
On 23 Apr 2002, Miles Bader wrote:

Ben Wing <ben@666.com> writes:
the fact is that things work quite well when you have only a meta key.
e.g. meta+letter is an accelerator only when such a menu exists;
otherwise, you get the regular binding -- and even then you can
retrieve the shadowed binding with shift+meta+letter.
Do people really like this?

I don't.  One ``feature'' that particularly annoys me is that, as Ben 
described, pressing Alt alone and then releasing it activates the menu 
bar.  So if I press Alt and then change my mind, I need to remember to 
type ESC or something similar before I can type text again.  That's a 
real dumper on fast typing.

this is only on for windows, and you can turn this off, of course.


It sounds astonishly annoying to have
random meta keys stolen by the menus, especially since emacs has many
useful and common commands on M-letter keys.  E.g., doesn't the `File'
menu steal `M-f', the `Buffers' menu `M-b', etc.?

I think such a mode is inappropriate for Emacs because our menu bar can 
change dynamically as a function of what you type.  So in Emacs, what 
keys will be stolen is not entirely predictable, which makes this even a 
worse idea, IMHO.

I'd suggest to find a modifier other than Meta, and use that instead.  
Something like Super or Hyper, for example; we support them on Windows as 
well.  For tty's, we could have some prefix key instead.

you guys are so X-centric in your thinking.  there is no other key in Windows, really.  people *always* expect the Alt key to traverse to menus, and it's no exception here.

as i said before [but it got purposely chopped off], most of the shadowed keys are available elsewhere -- M-f is also Ctrl-right, M-b is Ctrl-left, M-v [the View menu] is Next, etc.  Furthermore, those arrow/cursor-key bindings are more intuitive, and more standard, than the old-style Emacs bindings.  i designed things intentionally so they most all work like this.



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