From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Michael Matthew Toomim Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: The minibuffer vs. Dialog Boxes (Re: Making XEmacs be more up-to-date) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:38:47 -0700 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <3CC5AA37.5040208@cs.berkeley.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1019587230 10041 127.0.0.1 (23 Apr 2002 18:40:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:40:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Stephen J. Turnbull" , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kai_Gro=DF?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?johann?= , Terje Bless , xemacs-design@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 1705DK-0002bq-00 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:40:30 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1705Ed-0002ya-00 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:41:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 1705Cy-0008TJ-00; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:40:08 -0400 Original-Received: from relay2.eecs.berkeley.edu ([169.229.60.28]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 1705Bq-0008MI-00 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:38:58 -0400 Original-Received: from relay3.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by relay2.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12523 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from gateway.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (nsmail@gateway.EECS.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.60.73]) by relay3.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26822 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from cs.berkeley.edu (acacia.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.131.102]) by gateway.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GV1AGN00.6LU; Tue, 23 Apr 2002 11:38:47 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.9+) Gecko/20020319 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Original-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:3122 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:3122 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Well, yes and no. Terje seemmed to say that he didn't want to read the > manual, period. Not even a single section, not even when in bad need of > some specific information. That sounds extreme to me: if there's a way > of getting quickly to the necessary info, why should someone refuse to do > that on purpose? I think this is the crux of the disagreement: you seem to imply that this issue is a matter of desert. What the above paragraph implies, is that you think Terje doesn't deserve to use the cool features in XEmacs, or that we should not feel obligated to make the features easier to use, if he is not willing to put in the effort required to read the XEmacs manual. I think that this is missing his point. Terje isn't complaining to us that he can't use the features; he is trying to show us how to get more people to use XEmacs. He is showing us that there are certain barriers to entry that don't need to be there, and that these barriers cause a lot of people to miss out on the power that XEmacs provides. Whether the general mainstream audience has put in enough effort to really *deserve* to use XEmacs isn't the issue here. The issue is whether or not XEmacs has the best UI that it could have. Michael