From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A new collaborative editing package (maybe tangent) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 20:35:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3AFAEFA6-F2FD-46DC-BE70-F6243E896B64@gmail.com> References: <3E633CB5-B727-4933-8CF1-E1044CF39E70@gmail.com> <87cyuob6nc.fsf@red-bean.com> <2733C5E4-736F-4D08-B58B-F24BB551D18B@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22147"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Karl Fogel , emacs-devel To: "T.V Raman" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 01 05:36:25 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rKA2K-0005bx-LA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 01 Jan 2024 05:36:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKA1J-0005gn-1b; Sun, 31 Dec 2023 23:35:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKA1H-0005ge-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Dec 2023 23:35:19 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKA1C-0005LZ-0s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Dec 2023 23:35:19 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1d420aaa2abso28444165ad.3 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2023 20:35:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704083712; x=1704688512; darn=gnu.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Kgjg4w34pVvLYeB37ua7dicWJTsA+QdqSDtr2g2fGo4=; b=Q67FewoveGNA8asom7nob+9MD6vqa03eeRO9jtRIV7+fIMVp3LaFdzD/gNjTQDfHgb MxgNMOAGSU7xfViyibmzuRHtKV63h3/mcnfBpMinoQXPdLOEx3UZIj0T+ITvTnRy4SRN baPs7hf7Mcs28LlLpd/DQYPeoomd74guE05+S9cCWfoaFOUg2jTavvNnz/XIWY7IIeLP zOB7wB4V1Sn1fpzgbVpq7Wz41ddHgQcougvRRA0KOmInsNkC9LUvAE1iDpEX90nEmQ1v 1Saq9YHFN1DKK09fZ5zQ6GUOJDdj/l2G6bRhTnoc2W28utzSiVGEdIOxOOc1Xv/LJ93M Db7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704083712; x=1704688512; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Kgjg4w34pVvLYeB37ua7dicWJTsA+QdqSDtr2g2fGo4=; b=N184KRA6PxPYurgjlDROMGcbhFkIpi/zhpERemn+i4s83WTIpGW5Sv4yG2C0rQpdUu vuimhra5+lZoSkpd+WNU85sWjdbpMSJNktab4Nw0JP61ZSowEJ5x9Z5pJCwJg6OR5O/5 JYq0/ciCznJHMzbF9BQISp8t0nKkkiZ8164+GPSkYx8XKILqUJT1yL9MK7TOpSrsP+BS Wott9go3dxkp82w5jYNUrqWf3J2xCJKhEd59DP1N6WHKaD7i4xFRZ70oPR1KmYMzR7Mn LHfOvheB8zVibITESZ/JZaRSY9/VhEW5E7Ak9+G+26wZHxvEkvY9CKkh61g35uJ1/kRT AXbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy2T1TaRCptbTtkpAn+ifEDY/4xu9Ct952PswUsMYeXNKzyi4qL tiyu4QiwFpVMXyAebp6YP0g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHgppQe7FB9gzRVTGit741XokbCJ7QjRuyH8d67XBnYIMRGbBJEjus8/qs2BHKdahjOcOcGNg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:2448:b0:196:c92d:3bd8 with SMTP id t8-20020a056a20244800b00196c92d3bd8mr372584pzc.15.1704083712003; Sun, 31 Dec 2023 20:35:12 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (172-117-161-177.res.spectrum.com. [172.117.161.177]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v11-20020a17090331cb00b001d4be1ef183sm237253ple.98.2023.12.31.20.35.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 31 Dec 2023 20:35:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::636; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x636.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314411 Archived-At: > On Dec 31, 2023, at 7:33 AM, T.V Raman wrote: >=20 > I too think a "shared editing" feature would be enormously useful. >=20 > As step 0, I suggest we first colectively define what exactly "shared > editing " means, and use that to specifically what we implement vs = what > we dont. In that process, we should also identify "feature enablers" = vs > "actual features" see some thoughts below. >=20 > Shared Editing: >=20 > 1. Is this "same time" editing , as in peer-programming, or > "collaborative authoring" as in tools like Google Docs? Note that = for > the most part, people use collaborative authoring far more than = they > use "same time editing" with existing tools. Good question! And I=E2=80=99ve given it a lot of thought even before = implementing the system. I consider collab-mode primarily a =E2=80=9Csame = time=E2=80=9D editing tool. I agree that collaborative authoring would = be much more useful, but it has an unavoidable requirement=E2=80=94a = server that either directly host the documents or at least help with = synchronization and communication between nodes working on the same = document. The bottom line is, you need a server with considerable = resource. I don=E2=80=99t want to write a program that depends on = someone hosting such a service. (Now, collab-mode do require a public = signaling server for NAT traversal, but I expect the load on the = signaling server to be minimal, so $5/month on Linode or aws should = cover it.) You can say that with careful design, we can make some fully distributed = system that requires minimal involvement from a server. I agree with = that, but I expect such system to be vastly more complicated while = providing a degraded service. That leads to my next consideration: since = google doc already exists, is free to use, is only a click away, and is = very reliable, why would anyone want to use a program that requires some = setup, and is slower and less reliable than google docs? Having said all that, if someone really want a collaborative authoring = system, they can open a collab-mode instance and leave their computer = powered on. I think this solution beats any clever, intricate = distributed system design by a mile :-) >=20 > 2. For collaborative editing, a core platform requirement i some form = of > shared, persistent storage. Git could be good enough if you could > mask it from the user ... Or the hard disk of a user that=E2=80=99s willing to leave their = computer on for the duration of the collaboration. >=20 > 3. Features such as comments, comment threads are all "features" in my > opinion and I suspect Emacs has a plethora of tools for doing this > already once we crisply identify (1) and (2) above. Right, features like these can be easily added regardless of the core = design, so they don=E2=80=99t really affect the core design. Yuan=