From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Phil Sainty Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 10:13:35 +1200 Message-ID: <37172f35-6b2d-73f0-32db-37551429071d@orcon.net.nz> References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83wosd5h3x.fsf@gnu.org> <871sakzssu.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <5261e02f-fd51-7e8d-fb6b-ad013ce2e748@lanl.gov> <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535839944 24985 195.159.176.226 (1 Sep 2018 22:12:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 22:12:24 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 Cc: spacibba@aol.com, radon.neon@gmail.com, Emacs development discussions , Eli Zaretskii , flexibeast@gmail.com To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 02 00:12:19 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwE7v-0006Oc-Mi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 00:12:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38598 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwEA1-0000CW-8I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:14:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59270) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwE9O-0000CG-Mi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:13:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwE9L-00071f-J0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:13:50 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp-3.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.44]:56414) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwE9L-0006yq-6G; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 18:13:47 -0400 Original-Received: from [150.107.172.111] (port=59380 helo=[192.168.20.103]) by smtp-3.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwE9A-0001lY-3R; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 10:13:36 +1200 In-Reply-To: <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> Content-Language: en-GB X-GeoIP: NZ X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 60.234.4.44 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229172 Archived-At: On 02/09/18 05:40, hw wrote: > Since when does Alt work the same as ESC? I can't see a Meta key on a vt100 keyboard, so I suspect this has been the situation from the beginning (so 30+ years for GNU Emacs alone). > Why shouldn't Emacs adjust to changes and adopt new key bindings so > it becomes easier to use? It's important to understand that changes which would make life easier for you may well be making life harder for existing users. Changing established key bindings (which have been in muscle memory of many users for literal decades) is a big deal. Emacs provides tremendous flexibility when it comes to customising its key bindings to meet your personal preferences; but remember that they are your *personal* preferences, which may not match the preferences or expectations of other users. > The issue is that I very rarely use info and thus do not remember > its key bindings. Does the help page I got stuck in say anywhere > how to get back? Everything you need is in the Info menu. >>> I have menu and toolbar disabled ... >> >> Complaining about navigability and discoverability of an interface >> while having disabled its most discoverable features meant to guide >> new users is a strange combination. > > I'm pointing out a usability issue and you call it complaining. The menu bar directly addresses that usability issue. That's its purpose. It's a bit like removing the training wheels from a bicycle and then wondering why the bike allowed you to fall over when you lost your balance, no? I wouldn't recommend disabling the menus in *any* application without establishing how to access them again if you realised you needed to. With Emacs, even with the menu bar disabled, you still have access to them via F10 or M-` and in GUI frames the Info menu is also directly available via the mode line. -Phil