From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:44:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35641f86-6cfc-45a5-a63a-06a0663903c9@default> References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvc8kdsp.fsf@gnu.org> <6e11cd85-09a0-4b7a-baa2-0c810bdebbce@default> <871tnsg0w7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419198294 8230 80.91.229.3 (21 Dec 2014 21:44:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:44:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 21 22:44:46 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2oIw-00012H-2A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:44:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38412 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2oIv-0007J7-CS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:44:45 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52952) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2oIW-0007Hv-St for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:44:29 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2oIO-0002y5-4y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:44:20 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:17464) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2oIN-0002xr-Ut; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:44:12 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id sBLLi9h0012078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:44:09 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sBLLi7Zh027025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:44:08 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sBLLi7rE002746; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:44:07 GMT In-Reply-To: <871tnsg0w7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180448 Archived-At: > >> The younger crowd expects interactive web pages (e.g. jumping > >> to manual nodes with completion), because they are used to > >> interactive features on other pages (Gmail, facebook, etc.) > > > > Fine. And it is not only "the younger crowd" that is used to > > using interactive web pages. >=20 > Frankly, that's not really useful since > a) every "interactive web page" is different > b) they work badly with automated fetchers, so you cannot usefully > aggregate them > c) they tend to require enabling known security problems like Flash Yes, I agree. > > That's OK if it's a habit or they somehow find it easier, > > but they should at least be made aware that they *can* access > > the same information from within Emacs, and that they will > > get more help and learn more that way than via the manuals > > on line. >=20 > Well, one problem is that the manuals are really effective for > learning a lot in one learning session. And that's a good deal > for getting better with using Emacs. But it doesn't match > modern attention spans. I wouldn't use the word "modern" in that context. ;-) But OK, let's take as given, for the sake of discussion at least, that attention spans of people are in fact shorter nowadays. I don't see the problem you are getting at. Why does it follow that because the manuals are "really effective for learning a lot" they are not also very effective for learning a little? IMO, using the manuals within Emacs is effective for learning a little, as well as a lot. But perhaps your point here is something like this: The manuals are essentially reference manuals, with some guidance thrown in. They are not user guides or tutorials. They are not how-to videos. They are not FAQs. And so on. In sum, they are good for looking up reference information, but they are not so good for teaching/learning. Is that it? If so, then I would agree. For many users, reading a reference manual is not the best way to *learn*. (For some of us it is a good way, but for many others it is not so good.) But the answer to that problem is to add such learning aids, to supplement the manuals. I don't see this as a failing of the manuals, and certainly not of their form as Info within Emacs. > And that's an inherent problem we have with selling Emacs, > and it will continue to cost us "market percentages". Assuming I got your point (I'm not sure), I don't agree that it is an inherent problem. It might be a problem to some extent now (and I'm not even sure of that), but it is not an inherent problem. There are already lots of Emacs blogs, tutorials, wiki how-to's, etc. that help users learn Emacs. I really don't see the lack of such learning aids as "an inherent problem we have selling Emacs." > > The best way we can help them in this regard is to let them > > know that Emacs itself offers great help for learning about > > Emacs, and one of the best such aids are the Emacs and Elisp > > manuals - *within Emacs*. > > > > Having the information in these manuals at your fingertips > > while you use Emacs is an giant plus. Providing better Web > > use of the manuals is of course a good idea. But we should > > not neglect inviting users to consult the manuals from Emacs. >=20 > Certainly. But I think that would primarily concern the Emacs- > related manuals,=20 That's exactly what I said, at the outset. This is a separate concern from the need to provide a better web experience for GNU manuals in general. My point was that the Emacs and Elisp manuals are special, in that using them inside Emacs is particularly rewarding. > so we should probably see to it that one can get the Texinfo > conversion process and/or our personal manual CSS sheets to > make this a general feature of the Emacs manuals in particular. I agreed with that already. In doing that, I would like us to nevertheless consider the concern I raised, which is Emacs-specific.