From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 20:52:15 +0300 Message-ID: <34bf7b60-6959-47e5-e27c-d00627ab1782@yandex.ru> References: <831ro2tqqx.fsf@gnu.org> <4a1fd3f4-df92-c756-9874-4d07b54148ac@yandex.ru> <3bd09dca-dcdc-7569-e5fb-f6b53397af9d@yandex.ru> <83pnbjokdt.fsf@gnu.org> <2b9f91bb-e233-e24b-27d3-384dd66c4e8d@yandex.ru> <83sggfmwig.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="50863"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: yandros@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, joaotavora@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 04 19:52:55 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfGw-000D9W-W3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 19:52:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52376 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfGw-0007qW-24 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 13:52:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60596) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfGR-0007Pg-Jc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 13:52:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::433]:38985) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVfGP-0004R9-Ev; Mon, 04 May 2020 13:52:23 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id l18so140880wrn.6; Mon, 04 May 2020 10:52:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0ChsRgOHA0iFshJ3kPIhvY93QiwmsrbPaBfvgnKyKGA=; b=ZaAjB+eWszm1rxRFyLfWnP0LMlwGPLnzr75ZezU5Mxft5MDZYbykNFZmWQVMI720Jv 1uw/b1psZauCglpnjXU8nimg3Oz95aN/98kJVGLFOZ7PWAEv2F/Q2QLMyvNQOR1cR5vC zZteUy/6JF+E1iqjBpKf8UHmupCklBqORnstkXSo83hu5rqzOL6IGd7rrFCULdvUjyg3 aBSd0jA8/12SbAcvyoCB6im4nj7v8TFxcPRVrWiD7YB904fBNb0FoG9ykBe8fUxVCb+W bsxxnfH5TPYxEHFs0HecdZTh2W7geJf9+eB5iL1a3oP13iN7xHW4i7tjQvZOlsK5l1c+ Z9nA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0ChsRgOHA0iFshJ3kPIhvY93QiwmsrbPaBfvgnKyKGA=; b=SjPwSvxNfW1unEw7G4U15SvXc7oFKENolE9zASxGge3g7EPKyfIKz1jaybYuNUtuYB 4/B11K9MfE2kJ0X5oW8QYlFMpcjVBjwbpwOvIR9xu1EAN00MldcS3fhEaz3sUuG+WkQC QXr9MZFYfY0H9rXnOrIgIf1ZLnG8gokVBL5ek3Aj7HPyb1maR/piiNVKXW0HjK2c2a56 Q836T8wiS+XbNQ7pNmelRHA1CXR6lfVt6Fcv28i7FcHeKAb1tlzthQ0416VGCCvGY8C6 4aF4M4WYx6uJc2gt2OtszoTa3PSRfpmj/SLbxox/vKDguaTztT3X+S8TGRP4oSH7c+Ab NN8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYOOVmk3V6a7bazFrpGMtaMMvXrPWv/1CbdBfq+3bdPi8zc2Xoz N4U2vIYzN2gys87V9x119XU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJffGl1QEZcvgxBj65BkbbzEHxgfsTH5tXfGRwnIdjiop4H2jVa2Z3HOWy4firwUMHkCTe2XA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:efcb:: with SMTP id i11mr461816wrp.278.1588614739290; Mon, 04 May 2020 10:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f7sm18592744wrt.10.2020.05.04.10.52.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 May 2020 10:52:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83sggfmwig.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::433; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x433.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248887 Archived-At: On 04.05.2020 20:37, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> But changing something that exists, especially when it had existed for a >> while, is a long, arduous journey with rare chance of success, IME. > > It's longer, but not by a long shot. Of many discussion about changing default behavior that I've seen, the vast majority have failed. > A recent example: the :extend > face attribute. It's an interesting counter-example. First, it did little to change the actual functionality, just the looks. Second, there were no noticeable consensus, inside or outside the core, that the new behavior is better (I've mostly seen dissenting feedback, but the split is probably more like 50/50). But apparently you liked it well enough because it made Emacs's behavior more compatible with other software _you_ were familiar with, that even breaking the expectations of a lot of our users, or having to force all theme authors to update their themes (until I came along with a fix) wasn't price too high. >> Emacs has survived for decades, sure, but that's because it's based on >> some fundamentally good ideas, and that it managed (probably as a >> consequence) to attract a few very smart people along the way that keep >> it running. > > That too, but it isn't enough. Indeed, it isn't. Every such person is a stroke of luck, and people have a tendency to get old/change careers/retire/burn out/etc.