From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Fix some tooltip related problems Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 13:02:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <329fad14-bed5-409a-828c-facec2e4be35@default> References: <5A533FA4.4030507@gmx.at> <9384bae5-cbb9-4b4d-ac5c-1d01f01c8117@default> <5A53B633.5020706@gmx.at> <41d40db5-15d8-4b2c-a058-fb6dabc8bfd3@default> <5A548E7E.2040601@gmx.at> <5A55E8ED.1010602@gmx.at> <475d480b-3885-4779-ae46-09cf7fbbcee7@default> <20180110191755.GA79229@breton.holly.idiocy.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1515618775 24737 195.159.176.226 (10 Jan 2018 21:12:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:12:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: martin rudalics , emacs-devel To: Alan Third Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 10 22:12:51 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eZNfz-0005pC-7U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 22:12:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40722 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eZNhx-00061M-2X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:14:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51338) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eZNhp-00060v-R5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:14:42 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eZNhm-0000ih-Hm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:14:41 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:45458) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eZNhl-0000hZ-OW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:14:38 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w0ALEQkF085388; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:14:28 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=VIsDkuyB9sekp4PEq2Jqzynvt/pb8APDJ+EJWBTEhfI=; b=h9FA+XyLq2+cSQyz5XMyYQQwbNf6JyXaZvH8AL2l5Z0Fr4kTfHIXXhuCdZDY5VfuNXFe /cEM92y/oGaJUSY+yHUrJmcOhx2JffxNR6vrBv03r9K7XtmyYSmz0mlh9icCVyt+ZPyH c5g3ZmsaK5TfOan6HKiBQ2gcj1t3AbANKlihhZFBddVqElJFFHUXDJ18vfF2TYOwFSDW Q2V5kAUiKr8Vvc34nDO1hmnFfsp99y1Df1vts3u/6sUOfUfCQqQuNghbkXir3kYsdia3 +I3JaINq+kG2KqkYaqi/0jyNyhl5jwrSAQez+YV7uI9y32ie4GhRJqum2JCJvSLlkrQd cA== Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2fdtjur02a-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:14:27 +0000 Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w0AL2j65026541 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:02:45 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w0AL2hRk012976; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:02:44 GMT In-Reply-To: <20180110191755.GA79229@breton.holly.idiocy.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4627.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8770 signatures=668652 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1801100291 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.78 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:221813 Archived-At: > > (x-show-tip (propertize "abc" 'face '(:foreground "gray"))) > > > > What's different here from what you are talking about? > > OK, I'm using MS Windows. But does this not work also > > on GNU/Linux and Mac? >=20 > This doesn=E2=80=99t work on the NS port. Tooltips on that platform are > neither system tooltips nor fully=E2=80=90fledged frames. I think it also > doesn=E2=80=99t work with certain X toolkits (GTK?) where they use system > tooltips. I see. > > And if that doesn't work on such platforms, can't we use > > a ("normal") Emacs frame where such things do work? Just > > what is it that makes it impossible for Emacs to dim the > > text in a tooltip? Sorry, but this is not clear to me. >=20 > It=E2=80=99s beyond me why you=E2=80=99d want to dim a tooltip. Dimming o= f menu items > is standard behaviour on many platforms whereas dimming a tooltip is, > afaik, a completely novel behaviour and as a result would just be > confusing. 1. The ability to use different Emacs faces in a tooltip frame is much more general than the use of that ability to dim the text in a tooltip. It's a general feature. I didn't realize that Emacs was so limited in this regard on other platforms. Thank goodness it works without a problem on at least some platforms (e.g. Windows). Given that limitation, I repeat the question: Can't we use a ("normal") Emacs frame, where things such as faces do work, to implement tooltips? 2. Wrt dimming a tooltip to show that its text, or some of it, applies generally, or at least in some contexts, but does not apply currently: The argument that we shouldn't do it because that would be "novel" isn't a good argument. That a feature is "novel" is an argument neither for nor against its being added to Emacs. Emacs has, from the beginning, done things that weren't mainstream or even, yes, that were completely novel. There are some Emacs features that are still not found outside Emacs even though they've been in Emacs for decades. Ask yourself: How did dimming of menu items become standard behavior? How did that feature ever get added to anything? Certainly not by someone who argued that it shouldn't be added because it is "novel" or is not yet standard. Did someone have to explain to you what a dimmed menu item is all about? Is that inherently confusing the first time someone sees it? I think not. A tooltip with dimmed text is no more confusing.