From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: The poor quality of Emacs's backtraces Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 12:33:51 +0200 Message-ID: <327EA767-4E97-433C-894A-021B3845B86C@gmail.com> References: <3D901B62-4826-4783-B684-968E6890E75A@gmail.com> <6CB5E709-8F5A-4015-9F2C-337A87916C66@gmail.com> <909FC7C1-5473-4746-97E4-B067E6C2B271@gmail.com> <5382C438-D871-4C79-820C-DCA17C59CBCA@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33443"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 19 13:44:33 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qM5bd-0008XM-Qz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2023 13:44:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qM5ap-0007LJ-Sn; Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:43:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qM4VK-0000pt-Kw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2023 06:33:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qM4VI-0002re-61 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2023 06:33:58 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-4f954d7309fso868282e87.1 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2023 03:33:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1689762834; x=1692354834; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hVVLeGT0h5DViuJ3ttqR7YFuQnBthbbrrRQqNPVbbuU=; b=su0DMlYvgmusz2U4cJViDdrHv8+kInPf7kOJUMHs5/fWnYklZJRtVoEgRhxLtocALb eLj6JMRDz371mfzKQ9ElkjQSoy9I0BUohx4V5NwKobZzYLhZg2Rd58jz4hnhmQRk3fQh rsgglYz/BCE91g0cO/MZ+anFHyIpN8wECG31YcgoCrvq42932XtAqx2rV2aXnLnQ3zVk xsCz3y5kERETmv8J8m4zi4mcdU98Tl53idgDOe9vgoYorTneBpwgIQljQWD1wW/Zvb8h lxGkg1pNjw003aNyPDk5JKxZhPXFPiSIm46RfvqipJxIBC373B/3Dez2vpBwXbILOzu5 qu7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1689762834; x=1692354834; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hVVLeGT0h5DViuJ3ttqR7YFuQnBthbbrrRQqNPVbbuU=; b=JhcdeLDmDs1by2R5qOX0jtdKQbkUoQQw3JgldWjXvPphRn4DhvLDj4j7yLY3ZRxCt6 TDYsSXycZGV2URdIblKezAlbI2PDt4DzwZAPN7otJsWpudYsVSTuA5x+K2G0whNOMGO8 KClW9o844QJaS0FjB+TkpZ4RwHDQc68bDJjeC4ve53v5G9LGx0R7WHOG9yYEPhaPRyuR cTSu8ay8qh1wkEQkhcEpH3KMdUd4eN8Ch0664ryhvVMs8Vyz1HSKD7ifp10GrU3S+7Bq jT21qUEHH6EIpu8QUHosV32nSsWsfFqP8z2nGjdIVACvKXAdgpwaSlc7jBmQypgnnCl/ zRxg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLat8HI0aPcBKxZypmXiqOOmef94QvQTg9A5s9VXeJoNcnArqA9w PAt1P08HjfoOtj9pawPEL2o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlGa6yeoYQsTXGj+MTnJfBzNE6D5ke4f6W6dqQxMkQgCEYUyvwVTmrjeh95N7DFPW5HRDWXfNw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:55c:b0:4fb:103f:7d56 with SMTP id h28-20020a056512055c00b004fb103f7d56mr668607lfl.14.1689762833515; Wed, 19 Jul 2023 03:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (c188-150-165-235.bredband.tele2.se. [188.150.165.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w16-20020a05651204d000b004f3ab100161sm894809lfq.15.2023.07.19.03.33.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Jul 2023 03:33:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::133; envelope-from=mattias.engdegard@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x133.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:43:42 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:307970 Archived-At: 17 juli 2023 kl. 21.02 skrev Alan Mackenzie : > Well, I've committed the code (see below). Please actually measure it > and point out where it is actually slow, That is your obligation, not ours. You cannot demand that other people = accept your assertion that it is fast or have to prove otherwise. = Measuring performance properly is actual work. > And please don't exaggerate the "ease" with which it was written. I'm sure it was most taxing work. > I don't agree, at least not at the moment. The function object, all > three varieties, is big enough to hold all the information it needs to > hold. Should it need to become marginally bigger, so be it. It's apparently not big enough since you had to enlarge it. Now please remember that the current closure problem is not your fault: = it's an unsatisfactory set of data structures that we would like to = clean up. But it is what we have to work with for the time being, and = it's unclear when we will be able to do something about it (it's a = considerably bigger task). > These are all things that can be changed later. The main danger is = doing > nothing but talk, talk, talk, .... This kind of argument is unhelpful. Implying that there is an urgency = and that we therefore should accept your solution without delay does not = go down well. Nor does attempts to brush away valid criticism as things = that can be changed later. There is no crisis, and rushing through changes will be of benefit to = nobody in the long run. > That "faulting operation" is merely one > of the things I want. I would not be satisfied by just that. The > identity of the code referred to by each backtrace line is also > essential. There is a difference between what you personally want, and what you = reasonably can expect to impose upon others. > Whatever we do will involve "maintenance costs". You misunderstand. I'm talking about adding a feature which we cannot = easily undo or even change once it's in place. Whenever we do that, we = will have to be certain that it's the right one.