From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [Announce] The new Emacs homepage is online! Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2c38c85f-763d-449a-b714-2a4bd5728c4e@default> References: <878u11fde5.fsf@petton.fr> <87a8lh2dxl.fsf@dustycloud.org> <7de76737-d674-489c-b754-cc0b7e9ede05@default> <56FAFB77.6090104@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1459290977 10940 80.91.229.3 (29 Mar 2016 22:36:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:36:17 +0000 (UTC) To: =?iso-8859-1?B?Q2zpbWVudCBQaXQtLUNsYXVkZWw=?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 30 00:36:05 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1al2F1-00070M-6O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 00:36:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50288 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1al2F0-0006E5-Dp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:36:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40790) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1al2Em-0006Ax-NP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:35:49 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1al2Eh-0008CZ-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:35:48 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:48592) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1al2Eh-0008CU-GQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:35:43 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u2TMZfjH009134 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:35:42 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u2TMZfCm005533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:35:41 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u2TMZefZ029668; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:35:40 GMT In-Reply-To: <56FAFB77.6090104@gmail.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:202422 Archived-At: > >> Even just inverting to white-on-black would look much better. > > > > Seriously? Beauty, and eye-strain, are apparently in the eye of the > > beholder - at least in part. > > http://lmgtfy.com/?q=3Deye+strain+reading+online+light+dark+background+= screen > > http://lmgtfy.com/?q=3Dbest+background+color+for+reading+on+computer >=20 > Drew, sending a let-me-google-that-for-you link feels insulting. > I'm sure you meant it as a joke, but it looks rude from here. I didn't mean to be insulting, and I didn't mean it as a joke. I thought it would be easier for readers than suggesting that they search google using those words. Sorry if that was unclear. > Besides, here's a quote from the first result of the first link: >=20 > > Therefore, you want a background with about the intensity of a dark > > grey, with something about the intensity of a light grey. However, > > to get the high contrast I discussed above, you need to use color. Maybe try looking beyond the first search hit. Seriously, it's an interesting and not-so-obvious subject. I think you'll find that more research supports dark on light than the reverse, but I won't claim that it does. I looked into it many years ago, but of course things can change. I'm pretty sure that most research at least supports fairly high contrast between foreground and background (and I don't think that is the case for the samples you pointed to). High contrast is also quite important for accessibility, FWIW. > I don't necessarily agree, but I think your reply highlights the importan= ce > of showing that Emacs's looks can be customized to the taste of the user. With that I absolutely agree: We should make clear that it is easy to customize Emacs, including changing the default foreground & background, controlling syntax highlighting, and defining and using themes. > I'll also note that: > * vim is traditionally used in white-on-black terminals > * Atom uses a dark theme by default > * Spacemacs uses a dark theme by default > * Visual Studio provides both options, and asks you at installation time Yes, and there are lots of programmers who use light on dark. (And there are lots of programmers who are wrong. ;-)) > On the other hand, Eclipse and jEdit do default to black on white. >=20 > Drew, what would you think of adding a carousel showing the default theme= s? Adding a link to a page that shows a few different themes would be OK by me. The idea would be to at least show some breadth of possibility, not necessarily to suggest themes that are popular or considered good. > Maybe it would help make sure that everyone does get a "phew, Emacs can b= e > made pretty" moment (though more people would also get a "eww, who would > want Emacs to look like that" moment too). I don't feel strongly about any of this. And I think that anyone can (and will) easily google for information about themes and customization of Emacs. I don't worry about whether people coming to the GNU Emacs page become convinced that Emacs can be beautiful. But I would hope that they get the message that you can make it anything you want. > Nicolas, do you think it would be > a good idea? Would we want to also show more heavily customized copies of > Emacs? Ideally, this could even come with the script used to generate the > screenshots, so users can copy the styles if they want (in the fashion of > what matplotlib does at http://matplotlib.org/gallery.html, for example). > I'm sure Chris would be happy to provide details about the configuration > that he used. That kind of stuff is good for Emacs Wiki, IMHO. Not so much for the GNU Emacs site. The message of the GNU site wrt such things should be that you can easily customize Emacs. The GNU page need not (and probably should not) try to be a portal and a place for shopping this and that. Just one opinion.