From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Eli Zaretskii" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:18:09 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <2914-Wed03Dec2003181809+0200-eliz@elta.co.il> References: <8765heixvu.fsf@kanga.tapsellferrier.co.uk> <87ptfkdqss.fsf@kanga.tapsellferrier.co.uk> <20031122214251.GA14680@fencepost> <874qwuqjzw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <200311241619.hAOGJ6W27027@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200312030147.hB31lUh20316@raven.dms.auburn.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1070468992 17380 80.91.224.253 (3 Dec 2003 16:29:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:29:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: juri@jurta.org, epameinondas@gmx.de, bob@rattlesnake.com, nferrier@tapsellferrier.co.uk, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 03 17:29:46 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARZso-0006Lj-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:29:46 +0100 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARZsn-0001lM-00 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:29:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ARamB-0000wp-1F for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:26:59 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1ARakb-00005y-TC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:25:21 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1ARaju-00087f-73 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:25:09 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.41.8] (helo=mx20.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.24) id 1ARaju-00080n-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:24:38 -0500 Original-Received: from [192.114.186.18] (helo=bilbo.inter.net.il) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ARZl3-0004pY-Q1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:21:46 -0500 Original-Received: from zaretski ([80.230.144.52]) by bilbo.inter.net.il (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.8-GR) with ESMTP id BZT07825; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 18:18:53 +0200 (IST) Original-To: Luc Teirlinck X-Mailer: emacs 21.3.50 (via feedmail 8 I) and Blat ver 1.8.9 In-reply-to: <200312030147.hB31lUh20316@raven.dms.auburn.edu> (message from Luc Teirlinck on Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:47:30 -0600 (CST)) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:18325 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:18325 > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:47:30 -0600 (CST) > From: Luc Teirlinck > > The GNU C library manual (@pxref{Locales,,, libc, GNU Libc Manual}) > has more information about locales and locale items. > > That would look terrible in the printed manual with a double nearly > identically worded reference to the GNU Libc manual, once outside > parentheses and once inside parentheses. That just means my wording should perhaps be improved further, or maybe we should use @ifinfo and @ifnotinfo to make the text loog good in both online and hard-copy version. But I don't think the text I suggested will ``look terrible'', it will just look a bit awkward. It is my experience that Texinfo does that quite a bit: it doesn't make it easy to write cross-references that look good in all supported formats. I think the reason for this is that each format has its own rules for good style, and it isn't easy to write text that will be compatible with all of them. > How would you learn about Locales without _any_ manual being > referenced? We should first ask ourselves what is there for the user to learn before she understands what the ELisp manual says in that section. It's possible that the amount of additional info is small, in which case we could simply put it into the ELisp manual. It could also be that the user doesn't need to know anything else to understand the ELisp facilities enough to use them. Do we know what information from the glibc manual is required reading for the reader of the ELisp manual? > But why deprive users that do have the manual installed of this > information because other users do not have the manual installed? If you mention the manual, the user might think that she must read it because it contains some crucial information without which it is impossible to understand the text in point. I doubt that this is the case. > More generally, if the underlying C library is something other than > glibc, I might wonder whether the discussion in the glibc manual is at > all relevant to the treatment of locales I will see on my system. > > That manual pays considerable attention to portability. Portability has nothing to do with this. The glibc manual can describe facilities provided only by glibc and not found anywhere else. The question is, again, what exactly we want the user to pick up in the glibc manual.