From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Summer Emacs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Newbie Info Pages Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 12:58:21 +0200 Message-ID: <289AFFBC-16A4-4728-B702-D99045B6D7FF@summerstar.me> References: <87r09owat8.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3818.100.11.1.3\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_90D67A24-74B1-4971-8F3B-9C354331C9AC" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23865"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Suhail Singh , corwin@bru.st, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 17 12:59:37 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sqVvl-00065i-CB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 12:59:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqVux-0000Mj-Sc; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 06:58:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqVuw-0000Ew-0j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 06:58:46 -0400 Original-Received: from ci74p00im-qukt09082502.me.com ([17.57.156.15]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqVut-0002mc-I5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 06:58:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=summerstar.me; s=sig1; t=1726570717; bh=jZbzqdhW/kUwV0x0U9vgUh5AYaiwB0IQVF4oHuwnsGM=; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:To; b=h4YI2gu9YeZc48zVXAQa148VYcrlu+WUEypE8abfJK0HDika+e2bLwnqd4a8/Jdpg sdJW4r+wW/YwYO4406as5J6uOpoMzCjowODTbqv4smp1ssD4foIsNgbDjgQhvEl8bc 0/qTEYuyF3hZxBSmtJkLX0v586c41MSXxf6pMB1ROM+ZRy1JMPl3V0e0uX+xPKbNhv dQ7WskYU/JhUVAN+a/EImQAQ+gAjqS9NvljlSU3zXtdpRrAYkhNJgOf9W5Em6m3EWw WwVleNwUCx98RRkeEYM+G8us/c26M7pME7SI2QXB0NSQSgVA8RoauLluO/OAwRdRms fWta/bRby/qAg== Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (ci77p00im-dlb-asmtp-mailmevip.me.com [17.57.156.26]) by ci74p00im-qukt09082502.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A4F9D11C020E; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 10:58:34 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3818.100.11.1.3) X-Proofpoint-GUID: k3sLvmgaVvRNFTXV3-5J2hp_CL4d1Kw1 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: k3sLvmgaVvRNFTXV3-5J2hp_CL4d1Kw1 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1039,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.60.29 definitions=2024-09-17_02,2024-09-16_01,2024-09-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1030 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2409170079 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.57.156.15; envelope-from=summeremacs@summerstar.me; helo=ci74p00im-qukt09082502.me.com X-Spam_score_int: -37 X-Spam_score: -3.8 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1.048, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323688 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_90D67A24-74B1-4971-8F3B-9C354331C9AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 17, 2024, at 05:47, Richard Stallman wrote: >=20 > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >=20 > How does this proposed Info manual compare with the C-h t Emacs > tutorial? If they are doing different jobs, how do they differ? Good questions! Thank you. 1) My proposal is for new people to have a landing set of pages to click = through, explaining things in a clear and easy way for them to = understand without the instant introduction of concepts which are alien = to them. I think the help files are a great thing, but they are = overwhelming for new people. I know this because I=E2=80=99ve shown it = to people in my circles who don=E2=80=99t know much of anything about = how to use a computer, but still use applications such as Word or Pages = to type up things for work/classes. They couldn=E2=80=99t understand the = first thing about the help pages. I think there are a few reasons for this, but the most notable one is = that programmers (which seems to comprise the vast majority of Emacs = users) tend to take a lot of terms and concepts for granted. This makes = the default help files and GNU eww page a bit overwhelming for most = people. I want to introduce them to the things they need to get started = and comfortable before showing them that vast amount of information. Also, programmers are people who, when they don=E2=80=99t understand a = term (or function or variable) instantly look it up. Most people don=E2=80= =99t do that. And if we show them how to do, for instance, C-h v and = then type a variable name, the documentation which follows is rarely = understandable by people without any sort of coding background. Let=E2=80=99= s be real: Most people don=E2=80=99t even know what a function or = variable is. It=E2=80=99s not something they use in every day = conversation or on their computers. Learning Emacs will teach them this = of course, but I don=E2=80=99t want it to be the first thing they start = learning. 2) There is an EmacsWiki page for Emacs Newbies, and I have been going = over it and other written material provided by other volunteers. I want = to consolidate things into easily understood sections. Therefore, I have = put up the page I=E2=80=99m working on (it=E2=80=99s a very, very, very = unfinished rough rough rough draft) laying out the ideas I have so far. = It=E2=80=99s going to change in very big ways, sections will be moved, = more will be added. But if anyone wants to contribute/add/edit, please = feel free. It=E2=80=99s on GitHub (which I know isn=E2=80=99t people=E2=80= =99s favourite around here, but I use it because I don=E2=80=99t really = know others and I=E2=80=99m not a coder/developer so please bear with me = as I learn): = https://github.com/summeremacs/Emacsnewbie/blob/main/20240912T175822--emac= s-welcome-newbie-screen__emacs_help_tutorial.org=EF=BF=BC If anyone has any corrections/deletions/suggestions/additions, please = let me know. I know I=E2=80=99m a regular user but I=E2=80=99m very = willing to learn. If I make a mistake, it=E2=80=99s not intentional. In summary: I think that Emacs COULD be for a lot of people who aren=E2=80= =99t using it. I think most people CAN learn. Also, let me reiterate: = whomever wrote the navigation/editing tutorial in Emacs hit the nail on = the head. It taught me very quickly what I needed to know and it was = written for total newbies. It=E2=80=99s something I appreciate a lot and = it will be the first tutorial the new user in these pages will learn = (there will be a link to point to it and info on how to get back = provided). Thanks again to anyone who provides any help or tips/feedback. I=E2=80=99m= taking it all in. I have my regular job I=E2=80=99m really busy with = but I=E2=80=99m getting it all done as fast as possible. > --=20 > Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) >=20 Summer Emacs =E2=98=80=EF=B8=8F=F0=9F=90=83 --Apple-Mail=_90D67A24-74B1-4971-8F3B-9C354331C9AC Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_89A9A29F-0B93-4EAC-9857-89951FF9E488" --Apple-Mail=_89A9A29F-0B93-4EAC-9857-89951FF9E488 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Sep 17, 2024, = at 05:47, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI = agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ = whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, =     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to = follow Snowden's example. ]]]

How does this proposed Info manual = compare with the C-h t Emacs
tutorial?  If they are doing = different jobs, how do they = differ?

Good questions! = Thank you.

1) My proposal is for new people to = have a landing set of pages to click through, explaining things in a = clear and easy way for them to understand without the instant = introduction of concepts which are alien to them. I think the help files = are a great thing, but they are overwhelming for new people. I know this = because I=E2=80=99ve shown it to people in my circles who don=E2=80=99t = know much of anything about how to use a computer, but still use = applications such as Word or Pages to type up things for work/classes. = They couldn=E2=80=99t understand the first thing about the help = pages.

I think there are a few reasons for = this, but the most notable one is that programmers (which seems to = comprise the vast majority of Emacs users) tend to take a lot of terms = and concepts for granted. This makes the default help files and GNU eww = page a bit overwhelming for most people. I want to introduce them to the = things they need to get started and comfortable before showing them that = vast amount of information.

Also, programmers = are people who, when they don=E2=80=99t understand a term (or function = or variable) instantly look it up. Most people don=E2=80=99t do that. = And if we show them how to do, for instance, C-h v and then type a = variable name, the documentation which follows is rarely understandable = by people without any sort of coding background. Let=E2=80=99s be real: = Most people don=E2=80=99t even know what a function or variable is. = It=E2=80=99s not something they use in every day conversation or on = their computers. Learning Emacs will teach them this of course, but I = don=E2=80=99t want it to be the first thing they start = learning.

2) There is an EmacsWiki page for = Emacs Newbies, and I have been going over it and other written material = provided by other volunteers. I want to consolidate things into easily = understood sections. Therefore, I have put up the page I=E2=80=99m = working on (it=E2=80=99s a very, very, very unfinished rough rough rough = draft) laying out the ideas I have so far. It=E2=80=99s going to change = in very big ways, sections will be moved, more will be added. But if = anyone wants to contribute/add/edit, please feel free. It=E2=80=99s on = GitHub (which I know isn=E2=80=99t people=E2=80=99s favourite around = here, but I use it because I don=E2=80=99t really know others and I=E2=80=99= m not a coder/developer so please bear with me as I = learn):