From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:23:09 +0300 Message-ID: <283b4718-88eb-b63a-ce0b-316e4def4ff3@yandex.ru> References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> <8335ven7tu.fsf@gnu.org> <6654ddbe-0f1b-f36e-26f2-f4ee178b12ac@yandex.ru> <83sg3elkdz.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4539"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 Cc: stefan@marxist.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 25 13:24:30 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lacsI-00015E-13 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:24:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51202 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lacsH-00043X-3o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 07:24:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59282) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lacr7-0003a0-28 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 07:23:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::430]:33601) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lacr4-0002ZW-7F; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 07:23:16 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id g9so36869933wrx.0; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:23:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P9BsjAVjdaXHDYTR1X6onlyQgX5MT7KwR6zkC05fVro=; b=P16U9j6B/zK8w5MZIfx4/mnvd5q+qxpYutMdK7/sRCFrKOaLn0qHw6hF/SecUXTo9S wbulFQdstaQz3Kgvm4vQBNRnWb4Q2ZWpux1MzPqjTURAR6m0Pcv27fVxd+/hGY2rYFYG DPIUzzIK/91LQ04F5lsquogU+lonLh7cr4oQYzjE8LoHGD/XeC+3/kqBVWNWMfATmgCn WXq8LBwlZObZp+eJnd3JVxiRjAetY3gk4wqZBfI3a3mL3UBskwXKaf0XQb2BnWb0uQcT IZTbbre3PNqUY/IedUjoCJ499czK3aP7+HrfftHu1vIeEF2UapAAMeE1x9Z8IvazXEj6 q/UA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=P9BsjAVjdaXHDYTR1X6onlyQgX5MT7KwR6zkC05fVro=; b=fm55WE90lX8TymAqz+MbLqQ3Q1Vvr7ggVitSl4gUKk9vTSQRUyiOanDYlqN0Ckb1Zh 74Zis+sxvhtLEw+a4CHqU3lfwpmp50K4V9nUfQ1xVCVF4Bri8/ep+AwSqTVk6dOulsdb JCRiZFJX0nqkKPDtwEAI32tEDdQcMelSCHdaVkUZIsoSh8c8vbUKeWokGvpd1Rbkk1Fy RHOVTIFeD0NkrrUv+TuBh3WDoNltXmPr/8PU3cxhkYwoJ+UWvnHZNS36WNlr6ozQn1vR ckd1UvZCfSN6ou16eocMZM6bhtcL6yro3qECJe4g/UVf8FCvkqQo4TU+L4gtlAd3U66n rtww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531JHaOGCGnSb9eqkdMZPQ/iKgjDfuz9hqIaeBZnLFcoAvldEoX4 tD02tZgB19INMHLt0qRp9tikjTOKOsQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzodnINFxy/XmjuS8IVXCn7FtZ+F2nmJZdlsj6lkZ7mWG1PUJjDITvHM0XuBMDPJvrmVyrBEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:362:: with SMTP id f2mr16720913wrf.141.1619349791845; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id t17sm12649973wmq.12.2021.04.25.04.23.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:23:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83sg3elkdz.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::430; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x430.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268369 Archived-At: On 25.04.2021 13:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: Dmitry Gutov >> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:20:00 +0300 >> >> On 25.04.2021 10:26, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>>>> Perhaps the easiest fix would be to handle Delete same as Backspace here. >>>> Yes, that could alleviate the problem in this particular case. >>> Please don't, that would be a horribly wrong change. >> >> I have described an obvious problem: Emacs says press DEL to scroll, the >> user presses Del on their keyboard, and Emacs exits instead. > > I'm not opposed to finding a solution, I just don't think blindly > replacing each DEL with Backspace is a good solution. That's not what I suggested there. > We could mention Backspace in the text there, or we could add > PgUp/PgDn, for example Either/both would be an improvement. In the graphical Emacs, at least, we could print there instead of DEL. That should be unambiguous. >> All that in a Help interface, which is supposed to help newbies. Not >> grizzled veterans. > > You may be surprised to learn that I use that command quite often. Not really. But still, the Help interface shouldn't be primarily targeted at people who know most of that stuff already. I have tried to describe the situation with DEL as I understand it in another email, and probably got it only half right. After using Emacs for a decade and contributing code for a large part of it. > And in any case, we are not going to make veterans, grizzled or not, > unlearn what they have learned long ago, I hope. Not everything in Emacs is perfect. Sometimes an improvement justifies a breaking change. >> It's a real problem, if you want people to actually use this feature. >> >> > Like making C-f move backwards. >> >> If C-f never did anything in a certain interface, and doing this would >> help usability, why not. > > But DEL does do something. And so does Delete. Abort? That isn't really "doing anything". And aborting is even less semantic for that key than duplicating Backspace.