From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:29:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <283134e4-2323-4c4b-b76e-aa656633d275@default> References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37995"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Emacs developers To: John Yates , Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 16 21:31:45 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpdSb-0009m6-3P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 21:31:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47258 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpdSa-0000GJ-5C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:31:44 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36908) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpdQz-0007uV-Hd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:30:05 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:47146) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpdQx-0001Cb-6p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:30:04 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BGKU0Cr182290; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:30:01 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=rdEMHXcFnOyBnQ+CnK2/HlrUHLCZLnA04/UdY0uCLS0=; b=huOjuXqo82tS5XUme7qsXwd9BkW5/mb7O4U1PLoPMix11+X0p04QclJSJu1sNGi4tAc+ KOtbCpaiI4ACMbLz3DYQSIPM/berBzNs/l/fs28UKfEb3I9pqWvwCbA9hWTLZt8kiB4e l+gn4kfeS0HpzsHswLznRmmpb8x6L2ZcppJ3m/dubXjSvMkBx60gNLeI2zRpS5fkt9Lf 2HBcU0GE9CG7RwnWHwTPS4VL/CGJrk8LcJ7Xo7D4B3gzBF42MRdUVxpwtlDU/KOAdUux ZJfpUrPueGiftW1BIJarSuQ3WFJcoo0bKgOFUhZDHzrbNYDd1Ghr9smHvvX50TEKVg0S 4Q== Original-Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 35cntmaas9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:30:01 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BGKLGti115853; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:30:00 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 35e6jt9pks-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:30:00 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0BGKTwVB008964; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:29:59 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5071.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9837 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012160126 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9837 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012160127 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261058 Archived-At: > My sense is that such buttons made sense when a smaller fraction of the > population was computer literate. These days I would expect them only > on the most simplistic of editors, those still addressing absolute beginn= ers. >=20 > Folk using more featureful editors (emacs or otherwise) can be assumed > to have already mastered some of the fundamentals of editing text. Put > another way, can we not assume that anyone, even those using emacs > for the very first time, has some notion of key bindings (even if those a= re > C-c, C-x and C-v) and expects New, Open, Save, SaveAs and Close on > a File menu? Actually, there are a fair number of GUI applications that pretty much require a lot of mouse clicking - no easy way to use the keyboard for many things. And of those there are a fair number that have lots of toolbar buttons/icons. And in such contexts it can sometimes be quicker to click such a button than to access the equivalent menu item, which might be nested (whether from the menu bar or a popup menu). Such things don't apply to Emacs, in the sense that you're not _required_ to use menus or a toolbar. But their existence elsewhere might be an argument for Emacs supporting them.