From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs default key bindings [was: Opening Up More Keymaps Re: Standardizing more key bindings?] Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 13:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <28074306-3602-4251-a896-532c5f86c656@default> References: <364afb35-1cf9-4bd8-a34d-370dc428f950@default> <87wo08ph6w.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21046"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel , Thibaut Verron , "T.V Raman" To: "Philip K." Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 02 22:45:01 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kORvJ-0005Lq-0o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 22:45:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34986 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kORvI-0003RK-3S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 16:45:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51644) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kORuG-0002J5-2v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 16:43:58 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:36778) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kORuD-0007qT-Ls for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 16:43:55 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 092KhpXT098013; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 20:43:51 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=mbiTGpwyZXZniI1nzZISc/aWVb8XsaXa9zRsxvB5fwY=; b=q1ThyKKdNIQiz3BMEbkZkkeU4wEzBWBtk6vPewwROO8kLWO4CGRpwFjTEabrQhMi8/kH l0KbdtQeuwOYD51BjsyxmJ+yjnt7pJDIgOAOcH5qjf0Co2kgD3pEQykTRwGkbAew8f1b dZ9vWlgRhzUSPh4GesJ+FK//G9Uj5m5Gi9gbrFs+SMD65V/pyrWpG4HZobTMbxEWxt1L n+gRfer6hkAegxYv3Gq7LONkQrxBVvFjUEqnpRl++cGN8k49UbEejdG9hQqdUs+UjHEx qdvECghI8ET6fv4XPXI6iN5KWB/cTyb5sMpMp1Ja+NMpJ1i46sySK5u4JqEBkm1P1d/3 Dw== Original-Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33swkmcun4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 02 Oct 2020 20:43:51 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 092KeuFr078721; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 20:41:50 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33tfdy480t-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 02 Oct 2020 20:41:50 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 092Kfk9G012291; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 20:41:46 GMT In-Reply-To: <87wo08ph6w.fsf@posteo.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5056.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9762 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2010020151 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9762 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1011 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2010020152 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/02 16:43:52 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256971 Archived-At: > > 3. There's been a tendency recently to give Emacs > > even more default key bindings. Two cases come > > to mind, both in 2020: > > > > a. `C-x p' was taken by Emacs as a prefix key for > > `project.el' commands. > > b. `C-x t' was taken by Emacs as a prefix key for > > `tabbar.el' commands. > > > > Maybe those deserve prefix keys (?). But you see > > the tendency - less and less for users; more taken > > by default bindings. > > > > That's 2 excellent prefix keys just removed, > > in effect, from the user/3rd-party space. Poof! ^^^^^^^^^ >=20 > I get that they were in effect removed from the 3rd-party space, but the > user is still the final arbiter in what is bound or not. Do you really > loose anything, if you rebind C-x p, if you don't use project.el? Same > goes for C-x t if you don't use tabs. As I said: Sure, any user or library can redefine any keys. But once blessed as a default vanilla-Emacs key binding, a key is, for practical purposes, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ kinda off limits for a library. It's about what's practical. And it's about 3rd-party libraries also, not just individual user customizations. And who says that a user won't use project.el? I left the question open as to whether it needs a prefix key defined by default. But suppose it does. Does it need to be at the top level of `C-x'? Scarcity means we should perhaps start thinking of putting some things on lower levels under `C-x' (assuming they need default bindings). We already have some prefix keys under `C-x': `8' (and several prefix keys under `C-x 8'), `RET' (`C-m'), `ESC' (for `C-M-'), `a', `a i', `b', `n', `r', `r ESC', `t', `v M', `@'. The post I linked to starts by saying that we would do well to split `C-x r', for example, as it's got a mixture of stuff on it. We could do that by having prefix keys under `C-x r'. My suggestion was to move the bookmark stuff from `C-x r' to `C-x p', but there are other ways to clean up `C-x r' from being the congeries that it is now (rectangle, register, and bookmark, so far). > My point is that there seem to be varying degrees of > importance to key-bindings=20 I believe I suggested the same thing. There are several things to consider when binding a key, including doing so as a default for Emacs. Keys are by no means equal in their abilities, mnemonic suggestions, ease of use, or other "importance".