Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Mike Kupfer]

I upgraded from 27.1 to 27.2-rc2 over the weekend and noticed that Org
mode behaves differently, even with "emacs -Q".

In 27.1, if I visit foo.org and type "* header RET", point is put in the
first column.  In 27.2, point is put in column 3.

This behavior is apparently controlled by org-adapt-indentation, which
is t in both 27.1 and 27.2.  So maybe the behavior change is the result
of a bug fix?  Should this be documented in NEWS somewhere?

mike

Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu>
> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:04:08 -0700
> 
> I upgraded from 27.1 to 27.2-rc2 over the weekend and noticed that Org
> mode behaves differently, even with "emacs -Q".
> 
> In 27.1, if I visit foo.org and type "* header RET", point is put in the
> first column.  In 27.2, point is put in column 3.
> 
> This behavior is apparently controlled by org-adapt-indentation, which
> is t in both 27.1 and 27.2.  So maybe the behavior change is the result
> of a bug fix?  Should this be documented in NEWS somewhere?

Which NEWS are you reading, though?  Org has its own news, see
etc/ORG-NEWS.

Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Mike Kupfer]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> > From: Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:04:08 -0700
> > 
> > I upgraded from 27.1 to 27.2-rc2 over the weekend and noticed that Org
> > mode behaves differently, even with "emacs -Q".
> > 
> > In 27.1, if I visit foo.org and type "* header RET", point is put in the
> > first column.  In 27.2, point is put in column 3.
> > 
> > This behavior is apparently controlled by org-adapt-indentation, which
> > is t in both 27.1 and 27.2.  So maybe the behavior change is the result
> > of a bug fix?  Should this be documented in NEWS somewhere?
> 
> Which NEWS are you reading, though?  Org has its own news, see
> etc/ORG-NEWS.

It looks like Emacs 27.1 has Org 9.3, whereas Emacs 27.2 has Org 9.4.  I
don't see anything in the 9.4 section of ORG-NEWS that calls out the
change in behavior.  There's some discussion about a new allowed value
for org-adapt-indentation, but it doesn't seem to imply that the
behavior has changed when org-adapt-indentation is t.

BTW, what's the expected mechanism for a user to view ORG-NEWS?  I see
that it's installed into the "share" tree, but I don't see how to view
it via Help or Info.  (I can open a bug about this if it would be
helpful.)

thanks,
mike

Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu>
> cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:34:13 -0700
> 
> > Which NEWS are you reading, though?  Org has its own news, see
> > etc/ORG-NEWS.
> 
> It looks like Emacs 27.1 has Org 9.3, whereas Emacs 27.2 has Org 9.4.  I
> don't see anything in the 9.4 section of ORG-NEWS that calls out the
> change in behavior.  There's some discussion about a new allowed value
> for org-adapt-indentation, but it doesn't seem to imply that the
> behavior has changed when org-adapt-indentation is t.

Then please ask the Org developers, preferably on the Org mailing
list.  maybe they forgot to mention something in their NEWS.

> BTW, what's the expected mechanism for a user to view ORG-NEWS?  I see
> that it's installed into the "share" tree, but I don't see how to view
> it via Help or Info.

Looks like Org->Documentation->Browse Org news is it, but it takes you
to their site...

> (I can open a bug about this if it would be helpful.)

Feel free.

Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[chad]

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On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:55 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > BTW, what's the expected mechanism for a user to view ORG-NEWS?  I see
> > that it's installed into the "share" tree, but I don't see how to view
> > it via Help or Info.
>
> Looks like Org->Documentation->Browse Org news is it, but it takes you
> to their site...
>

Does it make sense to add an entry to NEWS along the lines of "Org has been
updated to version 9.4; see ORG-NEWS ('C-x C-v ORG-NEWS') for details."?

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Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: chad <yandros@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 12:16:07 -0700
> Cc: Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu>, EMACS development team <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> Does it make sense to add an entry to NEWS along the lines of "Org has been updated to version 9.4; see
> ORG-NEWS ('C-x C-v ORG-NEWS') for details."?

It does, but who will add such a line, and how do we make sure it is
there?  I'm afraid as long as Org is maintained elsewhere, there will
always be such cracks to fall though.

Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Tim Cross]

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On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 05:15, Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> I upgraded from 27.1 to 27.2-rc2 over the weekend and noticed that Org
> mode behaves differently, even with "emacs -Q".
>
> In 27.1, if I visit foo.org and type "* header RET", point is put in the
> first column.  In 27.2, point is put in column 3.
>
> This behavior is apparently controlled by org-adapt-indentation, which
> is t in both 27.1 and 27.2.  So maybe the behavior change is the result
> of a bug fix?  Should this be documented in NEWS somewhere?
>
>
> This is actually a side effect of org now honouring electric-indent-mode.
There is a section about this in the org NEWS file. Previously, org did not
support electric-indent-mode. Adding this support means that
org-adapt-indentation now acts slightly differently than it did before and
can be impacted by the setting of electric-indent-mode.

I would agree that the NEWS item on org-adaptive-indent should probably
referrence the entry on electric-indent-mode (and vice-versa) and the two
entries probably should be closer together in the NEWS file.


-- 
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

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Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Mike Kupfer]

Tim Cross wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 05:15, Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> 
>  I upgraded from 27.1 to 27.2-rc2 over the weekend and noticed that Org
>  mode behaves differently, even with "emacs -Q".
> 
>  In 27.1, if I visit foo.org and type "* header RET", point is put in the
>  first column.  In 27.2, point is put in column 3.
> 
>  This behavior is apparently controlled by org-adapt-indentation, which
>  is t in both 27.1 and 27.2.  So maybe the behavior change is the result
>  of a bug fix?  Should this be documented in NEWS somewhere?
> 
> This is actually a side effect of org now honouring
> electric-indent-mode. 

Ah, I see now.  I didn't even realize electric-indent-mode was
enabled--it doesn't appear in the minor mode list in the modeline, nor
does it appear in the minor mode mode-line menu. :-(

Thanks for explaining.

mike

Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Kévin Le Gouguec]

Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu> writes:

>> This is actually a side effect of org now honouring
>> electric-indent-mode. 
>
> Ah, I see now.  I didn't even realize electric-indent-mode was
> enabled--it doesn't appear in the minor mode list in the modeline, nor
> does it appear in the minor mode mode-line menu. :-(

FWIW, Bastien supports changing the default value of
org-adapt-indentation to 'headline-data[1], which roughly means "do not
indent regular text; only indent :DRAWERS:".  AFAICT the change has not
been made yet because 'headline-data still has a few issues to iron out.

This additional change would probably have helped prevent the uproar we
saw on the org-mode mailing list (… and the uproar yet to come once 27.2
is released).

(Also FWIW, the .dir-locals.el file at the top of org-mode's repository
sets org-adapt-indentation to nil; that might say something about the
opinion of Org developers as to the "canonical" indentation of Org
documents)


[1] https://orgmode.org/list/874kkgie3e.fsf@gnu.org/

Re: Org mode behavior change in 27.2 (org-adapt-indentation)

[Bastien]

Hi Kevin,

Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com> writes:

> Mike Kupfer <mkupfer@alum.berkeley.edu> writes:
>
>>> This is actually a side effect of org now honouring
>>> electric-indent-mode. 
>>
>> Ah, I see now.  I didn't even realize electric-indent-mode was
>> enabled--it doesn't appear in the minor mode list in the modeline, nor
>> does it appear in the minor mode mode-line menu. :-(
>
> FWIW, Bastien supports changing the default value of
> org-adapt-indentation to 'headline-data[1], which roughly means "do not
> indent regular text; only indent :DRAWERS:".  AFAICT the change has not
> been made yet because 'headline-data still has a few issues to iron out.

FWIW, I continue to use 'headline-data for `org-adapt-indentation' but
others convinced me that `org-adapt-indentation' should be nil by default.

I opened a poll about this on the Org-mode mailing list:
https://orgmode.org/list/878s4x3bwh.fsf@gnu.org/

Don't hesitate to share your opinion there.

-- 
 Bastien