From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 03:59:56 +0300 Message-ID: <25cf3073-f8ed-0be2-fe09-d2ee2a9c99e4@yandex.ru> References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <83y2q1dsvh.fsf@gnu.org> <2468efa6-7dbd-8634-44cc-586bb6985f49@yandex.ru> <83pnbddrfd.fsf@gnu.org> <83k11ldpxs.fsf@gnu.org> <83imh5dnun.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wpdms7.fsf@gnu.org> <88adcf52-7310-6d48-ab31-5d427deaa89d@yandex.ru> <65bfd7bb-34e5-53ca-a7c1-dfd0d22eeb9d@yandex.ru> <2827d7f3-6827-d580-7fe5-f3c24aae0029@yandex.ru> <83mu6ebjb7.fsf@gnu.org> <1b1b1138-82da-d37f-806e-cd478ef12756@yandex.ru> <83tv0l8b7u.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="103407"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, joaotavora@gmail.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 03:00:41 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ2Eq-000QrI-Rw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 03:00:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53924 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ2Ep-0000wX-TE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:00:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58698) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ2EF-0000F3-B9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:00:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]:40111) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ2ED-00008l-QA; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:00:02 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id e16so1726696wra.7; Wed, 13 May 2020 18:00:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0R4wk1upLUDt2j12TnRFl3HdOdn7cPc2IYSR1MC1Ox0=; b=cmycLF1TNITJZPm/2OopnRn7JvYiXw+5jZSAJ0p38+42JYYte4dfmznXveMgErZ7PO FCL50p2DEXhPnrjLYRaVKSdGPxJN/y1I54RRj1OJhPNxs7YqCtVG8/6s9j4EhfGf4G6o 2X21GAGggczbzx3K2h/tfkmBtiqkEXpKqUt1dLsIwvTxsC80XNfDtJmyMinzcqBTTs71 zgiZMey1sTgboZmVn7p8Cm67yaAtKhHW6YtyeUuqQS/arGb6hPcy7f8zMTDQwoOYFXOh mtr/6YyoyIiVDX6TF5Y5cOclPXa8m/l07QHueIf2IL4rygW55EMJaestQ7v/WK/iNuYi xAAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0R4wk1upLUDt2j12TnRFl3HdOdn7cPc2IYSR1MC1Ox0=; b=oIu5axMd3Gfp9QXazt73aRzLgAVsiQU0S/DlpIVB456NYvAOl02awRz7Pwced8a1k2 QiHYyUzgi/3+0ytp/79G2mCfCoWiE2T0WC6BDZS4Y21hGZhtnUfRIgt9P+YNb8TaTVub GHp/VbbOumst9yTpPeRdWHcnzbgxV+4dMgYrurvNB46CUh8QdE6gTL4xRav1lOShl2mC iEtg/OBDCo5qCIWSGY8s9KFgMFbinymfwM+u5AFzQjJW5OgE6xl6YC1mX4PUNrNjsPp3 gWdgDd2S4RNQykjaEu5bcwZDW5KfnlJ6RS/9RmOk64We8Hccmevh3pyTYDml05QMPGmM bGmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Lk8idVzIvXWsoJ1pZAUE2Eyw1SrCtFmqxjPm5GjeaHNcNbPgb faByXCoMS+7jRkyfAyq2QRqJX2Xu X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzqytl99jXFDB2KMxFphwslWtn1kRiwlY+wJQs3jt5z9A3N+wYvR9dgb7wLvucc8Xv0RGaEzg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e682:: with SMTP id r2mr2168807wrm.378.1589417998975; Wed, 13 May 2020 17:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id h27sm1978925wrc.46.2020.05.13.17.59.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 13 May 2020 17:59:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83tv0l8b7u.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42b; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42b.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250176 Archived-At: On 12.05.2020 17:44, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>> Most of the code in Emacs doesn't have an "owner", so this cannot work >>> for us. Heck, we don't even have appointed few who'd triage every >>> report quickly and efficiently (which would be one way of preventing >>> too many people from reading too many email messages). >> >> These are the main reasons why I'm wary of adding more packages to Emacs >> core without solid justification. > > I don't think adding a few more will cause any tangible changes. True, but I'd rather we took the steps in the other direction. It also seems like a missed opportunity to show that the Emacs leadership takes GNU ELPA seriously, that it *is* "almost part of Emacs" it has been touted to be rather than a collection of toys somewhere in the backyard. That would mean incorporating the use of it in some official documentation. And what better examples to start with than Eglot and Company (or something else, maybe). > We > are also regularly retire packages to lisp/obsolete/. We generally do that only when we're fairly sure the package has very little users, and/or its functionality has been superseded by other packages. Meaning the case where we already have no expectations of it ever being picked up. But in cases where we think a package is still useful for some, just not important enough for us to carefully maintain, we could move it "somewhere visible" (and GNU ELPA is better for that than lisp/obsolete/) with an explanation, and with the hope that, if there are enough users, someone will pick up the responsibility. I would also like to move out Gnus/Org/Tramp/CEDET personally, but all of these sounds like separate, difficult discussions. >> Having more core developers should be a plus for sure, but the extra >> cognitive load for everyone else seems unavoidable either way. > > Of course. But adding packages also tends to add core developers, > albeit slowly. And then the developers leave, and we end up maintaining the packages more or less indefinitely. CEDET would be one example. >> So it seems to me that the logical thing would be to try to slim it down >> where feasible rather than simply keep growing. > > Unless we are going to move a significant fraction, it won't help. To > say nothing of the fact that ELPA packages shouldn't be abandoned, > they should still be maintained. And moving a package to ELPA doesn't > cause someone outside of the core team to take ownership on that > package, so the overall burden will not be affected. People read package description more often than they read the contents of lisp/obsolete. We don't have to entirely un-maintain the "moved out" packages, the degree of continual involvement could be a subject of discussion, or it could be decided on a case-by-case basis.