From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Rogers Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2023 18:51:19 -0700 Message-ID: <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> References: <46ab3c7d-d820-4bb4-8ec4-97c614d7c8a0@alphapapa.net> <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4661"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , joaotavora@gmail.com, adam@alphapapa.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com To: Philip Kaludercic , Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 03 02:52:25 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qyjMH-0000yx-I4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 02:52:25 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyjLL-0007c9-S4; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 21:51:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyjLK-0007bi-5V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 21:51:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyjLH-0000K5-3i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 21:51:25 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6bd73395bceso1311850b3a.0 for ; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 18:51:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rgrjr-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1698976281; x=1699581081; darn=gnu.org; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=PWFs38R2r/iors/77Oca0+LgJsSDBTpcXnIrEEfAmkA=; b=MqRO1AUcOL/ZFUkG5lyeJf9OTXutdWebjXTUzXydNzhZx9co6Xso/tT8FwJTvVcTE6 dbTloHi6Cdtf+ZfuO0LF2l2DSjUMyvIahGaSFfv0ZZEugfntcSuOGrIbfqxU2IQ+MeMA Yimxqx3DoBRWJ7Av+3rP56TWVqc8C4OLzAKauHva19njbMaRD0wkiXm4X80PP+TD6Lgr CgDaC1uPxqkr7QIstxRO/PIYr0lJZ7mT1SGIm2TPTDZFgCIOcpHeowK7ydLIo5DsKatY vJw7t3hmpSancV3fiPeaJwJQcpyyImPrw/3DNCU9axmdji3cSTQ6ZD59TD44WQLYby4G UDhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698976281; x=1699581081; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PWFs38R2r/iors/77Oca0+LgJsSDBTpcXnIrEEfAmkA=; b=qFhltTUZjGL/uKuGmEGaq7dziyqN33E9TWid6a0rfaFxP5IQ6RtyKwT9P1c1GSIkHL U6sQNAmgIr0/338XXWNYGQu1HPxKQbGFDHuWBJa7UDgLKgijOrIoB/5i2ABGe9cvx+9r 0hvJIc23NRWS/Baf+61RkbjmgOgCMBGU8Wf9smBBpI66p6u9ZeIDhwQ/vSQnl+1M+eYo Cy3csVJNRHChf2OHvjJuSBfUcWDMywnHe75NF3MVUl1rezjIpTswa/Noaf8I1BsN66M8 j6/BkcJVBCgJt8FHE682Ko7C3MhdApibTIO49qbah11GZyShtk9QbZESGOEQKNxHwx8p VkDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx4Byt316mU3bChedbfjabvF6Yon1dWNjIEjJ+3Mwsy9ZUZgKA5 t1wKW/fPQkThwzNQgIiWCSikvQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHdf5M/jm+4+3/3qqpqV84uQCrnnGCFvO8J1bibUlgz9gIBkpAMpiLo0igi1OSjDF8EVCttlg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:4786:b0:68a:48e7:9deb with SMTP id dh6-20020a056a00478600b0068a48e79debmr1315589pfb.2.1698976281215; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 18:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from orion.rgrjr.com ([2600:1700:7c2c:e000::22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q17-20020a62e111000000b006c34f19c459sm339910pfh.139.2023.11.02.18.51.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 02 Nov 2023 18:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: Bob Rogers In-Reply-To: <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 30.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d; envelope-from=rogers@rgrjr.com; helo=mail-pf1-x42d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -56 X-Spam_score: -5.7 X-Spam_bar: ----- X-Spam_report: (-5.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.777, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312140 Archived-At: From: Philip Kaludercic Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 21:26:00 +0000 Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Philip Kaludercic >> Cc: João Távora , >> adam@alphapapa.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com >> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 08:55:54 +0000 >> >> Richard Stallman writes: >> >> > It might be ok to add some keyword arguments to `sort', which >> > are more unusual and complex to use, but not to simple >> > constructs like `pushnew'. This is Emacs Lisp, not Common Lisp. >> >> What does that last sentence mean? > > . . . . . . >> what constitutes "Emacs Lisp"? It would seem peculiar if it were >> to be defined by the arbitrary decisions of the past, constrained >> by the contingent circumstances of the time. > > Those "arbitrary decisions" are what got us to where we are now, 40 > years later. So some respect for those "arbitrary decisions" is due, > I think. No disrespect meant, but I am not sure we are thinking of the same things. An "arbitrary decision" usually doesn't matter much, like calling a function rplacd or setcdr. If a decision got us to where we are now, I would say it wasn't that arbitrary, but a good one? I think we are not really talking about arbitrary decisions here, but about language style decisions, which may seem arbitrary (especially if you disagree with the style of the resulting language!) but do matter to the consistency and coherence of the resulting language. And, although my experience only goes back to Emacs 18, I think the original Emacs Lisp had a definite style that set it apart from other Lisp dialects. But that was a long time ago, and Emacs Lisp has grown enormously (as someone else pointed out early in the original thread) to support the enormous growth in Emacs, so that original style is now much harder to see. (Indeed, I notice it mostly when updating my old code.) So, Richard, I see that you are fighting to preserve something real and important -- your vision of Emacs Lisp as a coherent language -- and I believe that may be your prerogative as its creator. But I also believe you may be a decade or two too late. -- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/