From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Rogers Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 10:58:16 -0700 Message-ID: <25851.24760.344768.270920@orion.rgrjr.com> References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> <877cpfybhf.fsf@yahoo.com> <873503y66i.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27842"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Richard Stallman , luangruo@yahoo.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 08 19:59:16 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qeflD-000712-MM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 19:59:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qefkO-0007u4-De; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 13:58:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qefkN-0007tp-2u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 13:58:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qefkK-0007ls-5f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 13:58:22 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-26f38171174so1866817a91.3 for ; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 10:58:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rgrjr-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1694195898; x=1694800698; darn=gnu.org; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=tplTD3zPhlhIDO7vf4i4cGqqQNMXXYkfpmdkkeoeg2Q=; b=1E5hAdrj+HhSuErp8U4nLjpLC31AbboE2HeM3yERUbVwtHpJ0b2UAiqqsxqeDsQOD+ DaoymyrOdghNapry1l/8ZMkHGc8T133mrWp6g6RZrrS/I3uWmtUEvk5k74DA3VI/YYB9 Aq9KCsQ/u4187RLQLRDcX9lcx7md/dJ/gSWoHZFk1W59vpkumsN4pqmmVqQ+yxzkT1lr eMKsO9G/1kX3JclQSk09QBDcO1ITUFZfhruQLg/9ZXQ9xuPXnmFsVbed+43IEtLII9xf F4tI3gQWw8dYkMKZluzupMp+5vI3aZkFttMXOTB/M/8H5rkj5703RnAbKdxPd4AMzcer 2g/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694195898; x=1694800698; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tplTD3zPhlhIDO7vf4i4cGqqQNMXXYkfpmdkkeoeg2Q=; b=n2bvdTRGb4mbqaw9+ZCfxyFoFlXALsCavKzb6i60Ebaf0IN2ME983U0NG3aqvbC5Lf CyujdGMo+tGhpqGAlZotsPcTtP9BeZLHIBe3G32kkiKPCqwPXIQd/fCIq3aPWsnn36xr 478+3bFTsyENWqkIR6li5NAh9dS33stvNO1AqXBvlpc4PEoUUxwH5j6gsLD0fNldDxph Hi4Cnc+0yyE6A3QOAyVYm7vGb12sgEc+Fl9nziJtTFxFX1RcMi4h8RyrdUIlAaq2vr4M 82QQVYdd+IWfJooWha3y9+mwjoR2XuJZ7rRIEfG4aamfoG5x/ygfqfD9mnQpS1ntozxP JTWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwJAmkzQpOZVVaow65cay5ahZLlMXklX2zpDcxjxQ5G0L7VneNb cLRf4gggdSb5kc4aitAnCwaLjA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHqwz8x/HNYnI6wApHdNA97sL9Cxo69YnoqlrfjZNiQEVYcK3AWC59m659Ttxt5gCurDrNrCQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:784:b0:26d:416a:b027 with SMTP id l4-20020a17090b078400b0026d416ab027mr3117162pjz.31.1694195898233; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 10:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from orion.rgrjr.com ([2600:1700:7c2c:e000::22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 7-20020a17090a194700b00262d662c9adsm1092817pjh.53.2023.09.08.10.58.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 08 Sep 2023 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: Bob Rogers In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 30.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d; envelope-from=rogers@rgrjr.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -33 X-Spam_score: -3.4 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.473, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310347 Archived-At: From: Arthur Miller Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 04:00:56 +0200 Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Arthur. > > On Wed, Sep 06, 2023 at 07:04:43 +0200, Arthur Miller wrote: >> Richard Stallman writes: > . . . >> > Also, there are aspects of Common Lisp which i rejected as clumsy and > >> With all respect to you, but sound to me like an emotional argument, not >> a rational one. > > It's a rational argument expressed in emotional terms for simplicity. What you basicaly say: it somehow is a summarization of some more advanced/complicated reasons which can't be explained, but have to be expressed in the term "I don't like it" for the simplicity? It's an aesthetic argument, and I am sure we can all agree that language design has a large and important aesthetic component. I believe Richard can justify leaving out (e.g.) keywords from the core language on that basis alone. Mind you, I do agree with your practical arguments, and I appreciate the references concerning the growing complexity of modern languages and their communities. What I think nobody has yet mentioned (and at the risk of adding to an overlong and possibily off-topic discussion) is the fact that the learning-curve issue should be less of a problem to the embedded language of the "self-documenting" editor. -- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/