From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn?= Bidar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 20:47:05 +0300 Message-ID: <25020.1854550809$1697737694@news.gmane.org> References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38517"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, incal@dataswamp.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 19 19:48:06 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qtX7u-0009pf-EY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 19:48:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtX79-0001pM-IV; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:47:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtX72-0001o8-Qo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:47:13 -0400 Original-Received: from thaodan.de ([185.216.177.71]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtX6z-0003D3-Ox; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:47:12 -0400 Original-Received: from odin (dsl-trebng12-50dc77-87.dhcp.inet.fi [80.220.119.87]) by thaodan.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3B45FD08D70; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 20:47:06 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=thaodan.de; s=mail; t=1697737626; bh=g0PVraB/vMub1i8GSIsbSGTTr+PWEXQVO5mUZjoU2Wk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=Pq8aSIN4ruvQhhP92E/xHsHLdWKf/vIwxqmrneGAkKi37ZLnEXVjsxRyZRMcOTeN8 nHAYMhYhOlq04SG6JuUP15IXjyZhJgBdzjh8TQ8m2bDnRInRckX3vTI2l7umIFnuXc f61yJRAmUmliz1m0fSZs2SDVARERjUu0UbQVYy3nJ2v43UVHWqQ+WXfZ3Yqja8KVvd rP2Yt5DoG0IjTbgOPN80lnYgLGCYMMOZlpuyADnLbcuHg7V102MZcnWEt4M3/+04ld 1NLnwZfnBYAnjwewjdxJWcKK8DbUDNWRTbTmytH4G5XOdiiLW2OvCTmUhm5TMD3q22 9yKVpZmkhv5LSCHGM0o8MVRKgtA0Txduvq1LOV+Lr4zbup/n9KWBiRgPRd/u2pQguU bJ71GxDV3jMssIwaDEThGFz8PKhMSInC6bWtLbFHCTAjEDNrygPvjDxQ/fUJq7zCwl FmHffo3F8uFtwUmhOSgwixv1OEA2LVr95nOxRmgToHUjRa1Bmqp8eiALGjmtpUvqK4 7ZXjZgn6Tc6xXbp1wAsItFBB2gSVpthvXgr2bnadwbqGfk5FbK4cxAwxVs9MsS4dZW 69Z5t+23oFijEarx5S4DR9Kb8rWbLk/ADEA/DwgpwK1rraGYO3a3yNFt1EF4qkEGCJ +o902OqA/WCp/pQn6bHzA2fs= In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Thu, 19 Oct 2023 12:34:42 +0000") Autocrypt: addr=bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de; prefer-encrypt=nopreference; keydata= mDMEZNfpPhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdACBEmr+0xwIIHZfIDlZmm7sa+lHHSb0g9FZrN6qE6ru60JUJq w7ZybiBCaWRhciA8Ympvcm4uYmlkYXJAdGhhb2Rhbi5kZT6IlgQTFgoAPgIbAwULCQgHAgIiAgYV CgkICwIEFgIDAQIeBwIXgBYhBFHxdut1RzAepymoq1wbdKFlHF9oBQJk1/YmAhkBAAoJEFwbdKFl HF9oB9cBAJoIIGQKXm4cpap+Flxc/EGnYl0123lcEyzuduqvlDT0AQC3OlFKm/OiqJ8IMTrzJRZ8 phFssTkSrrFXnM2jm5PYDoiTBBMWCgA7FiEEUfF263VHMB6nKairXBt0oWUcX2gFAmTX6T4CGwMF CwkIBwICIgIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgcCF4AACgkQXBt0oWUcX2hbCQEAtru7kvM8hi8zo6z9ux2h K+B5xViKuo7Z8K3IXuK5ugwA+wUfKzomzdBPhfxDsqLcEziGRxoyx0Q3ld9aermBUccHtBxCasO2 cm4gQmlkYXIgPG1lQHRoYW9kYW4uZGU+iJMEExYKADsCGwMFCwkIBwICIgIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwEC HgcCF4AWIQRR8XbrdUcwHqcpqKtcG3ShZRxfaAUCZNf2FQAKCRBcG3ShZRxfaCzSAP4hZ7cSp0YN XYpcjHdsySh2MuBhhoPeLGXs+2kSiqBiOwD/TP8AgPEg/R+SI9GI9on7fBJJ0mp2IT8kZ2rhDOjg gA6IkwQTFgoAOxYhBFHxdut1RzAepymoq1wbdKFlH Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.216.177.71; envelope-from=bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de; helo=thaodan.de X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311601 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Eli. >> > I fear that that's the way things will stay, because it would be too >> > much work to fix. But more because there are enough contributors who >> > think that cl-lib is just an ordinary part of Emacs to be used freely >> > without restraint. I am not among this group of contributors. > >> We cannot possibly expect people to contribute code if we force them >> not to use the macros they are used to. If cl-lib is not loaded as >> result, that is good enough for us, I think. > > We "force" them to use Emacs Lisp, but they still contribute. The > problem is that use of cl- makes maintenance of other people's code much > harder, at least for me. I'm sure I'm not alone. > > cl- probably multiplies the size of the Lisp language parts of Elisp > (i.e. things like defun, defmacro, if, while, cond, ...) by around three. > I'm not able to learn all these fancy macros which are used rarely enough > not to be learnable, but frequently enough to cause maintenance headaches > - every time I encounter `if-let' and the like, it just stops me in my > tracks. I either have to guess what it means, which makes me > uncomfortable, or laboriously consult a doc string, if any. > > Yes, I know if-let isn't a cl- function, and its doc string is of > reasonable quality. Many cl- functions don't have doc strings, or have > inadequate ones, however. > > There was a time in the medium past when the use of run time cl- was not > allowed. Emacs was then, from my point of view, much easier to maintain. > At some stage this rule was done away with, but I don't recall there > being any discussion on emacs-devel about this change. There should have > been such discussion. > I think if people find cl- useful there are reasons for that. That code changes, things get harder to read if one doesn't know the new code is normal I think. Resisting against change, doesn't seem like the best option to me. But the only change that is necessary from my point of view is that the documentation is on par. As someone that is new in lisp programming I found that these shortcuts that macros like these allow make things easier but in sometimes harder to understand what's going on.