From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "T.V Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On the adoption of transient.el Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 19:03:32 -0700 Message-ID: <24845.59892.189948.567676@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> References: <877di4on3d.fsf@posteo.net> <87im1oy6mw.fsf@posteo.net> <87y29hihea.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7895"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: raman@google.com, philipk@posteo.net, gabriel376@hotmail.com, yuri.v.khan@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: salutis@me.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 07 04:04:20 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mCBhE-0001ql-4e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 04:04:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35968 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCBhC-00046A-EG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 22:04:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47460) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCBgY-0003Ra-TK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 22:03:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1035.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035]:55237) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCBgW-0003tb-FJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 22:03:38 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1035.google.com with SMTP id a8so19301283pjk.4 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 19:03:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:date:to:cc :subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=cLxqK+TqX1C+xjZzTqUu3fiPlJYiJUGCg3f/HYr6NBI=; b=SKavB300vnCuEVRiKflil+ehKhc5fGw8BZkFnP3e9zOfxzF4ect/VUXrUltwlT08OP KC5Vi9UUp/fqTQyOnwKRWD6IdKu26Iqs+A6QiczOIUY7AeRwhqQPsTfmluC/ivPG3lYo v60NGEhzdGTElx4ng5RsUi6lJo1j+Ay2iRxnOnF9HRfXMeHJXMpnU1gWoUos4Qd4wMsN redZGQTchxP222M+dkPHjXVGn7LDblob1CpLN1Bbk4GjvC9//kS0pkjDm87j+MONuhin mdlrq2if+ktnWdCqZ3vN4VpSEU1lLv17sW8X0o0dgqcRdhmNDh1rqQjDHv59abeaYA4b Ywvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:date:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=cLxqK+TqX1C+xjZzTqUu3fiPlJYiJUGCg3f/HYr6NBI=; b=QYcQbVmIMOUg7UbLj+OPNR6np3zJu05dWbLccGNCCHPiLQWgmbo7KDbR/I7jqrtz0U lB5d/1GJac6Vh4KSK52UnfGiGikwaHyR5wY+Er1vGw+mv87polv7WapsQjeySqADpQG7 FfaHQshtTCGtu9T+ONiw/fFUdBF1SnbE8edxNnn7xm1wIC3D9U5QN6xZ4LDqxeeZ0QiY VbvwP10dXYAewTjdlo4ih2I2ZZt/E4KO7onjM0SPsc/77PomYBb/aFE6VO6JvnfrUn3a YZzhi8Xd3y31/GfOzCm4t8IQ6tkcdF3HdH/OuCPc0LnHvhLEgLXqkq097QUpxeroP4V3 VROw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325khM+NaykXMf4P+j9rB8SmsQWUaKW4EHo/Kp4G9qodZjkLe1T g9UFUQaxk3eFhpkDiVI4rc+EdMZp3rCtwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxSr92xPcsT/oCAon6mF4BZRxtRIskbZQR7KZNB3fE0OC38EoU9VROQk+FP4aG/mNeB6StMSw== X-Received: by 2002:a65:5603:: with SMTP id l3mr246848pgs.281.1628301814153; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 19:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from retriever.mtv.corp.google.com ([2620:0:1000:1510:aaa3:6dee:9856:626d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y62sm11968738pfy.183.2021.08.06.19.03.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 06 Aug 2021 19:03:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 28.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1035.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -201 X-Spam_score: -20.2 X-Spam_bar: -------------------- X-Spam_report: (-20.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, NICE_REPLY_A=-2.619, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:272148 Archived-At: yes, the transient window is special in that it is "never current" but visible --- I too dont like that behavior but live with it because it supposedly enhances the visible interface (what do I know, I dont look at the screen:-)) Rudolf Adamkovi=C4=8D writes: > This is useful, thank you! C-n/C-p and C-s/C-r solved. Selection=20 > with C-SPC still does not work, e.g. one still cannot copy some=20 > text for a bug report or personal notes. Further, and I forgot to=20= > mention this in my original message, the new transient UI renders=20= > the help system, such as the glorious C-h k, useless. Not being=20 > able to copy text or describe all keys is not what I expect to see=20= > in the official parts of vanilla Emacs. >=20 > R+ >=20 > "T.V Raman" writes: >=20 > > Philip Kaludercic writes:=20 > > =20 > > I recently discovered thanks to the transient/magit author that=20= > > once you=20 > > enable navigation via arrows in transient popups, it also gives=20= > > you isearch of the transient. We then discovered a bug where=20 > > using isearch to find a transient option and pressing enter=20 > > wasn't working, but Jonas has since fixed that and it works.=20 > > transient-enable-popup-navigation is a variable defined in=20 > > =E2=80=98transient.el=E2=80=99.=20 > >=20 > > Its value is t Original value was nil=20 > >=20 > > You can customize this variable. This variable was=20 > > introduced, or its default value was changed, in version 0.2.0=20= > > of the transient package.=20 > >=20 > > Whether navigation commands are enabled in the transient popup.=20= > >=20 > > While a transient is active the transient popup buffer is not=20 > > the current buffer, making it necessary to use dedicated=20 > > commands to act on that buffer itself. If this non-nil, then=20 > > the following features are available:=20 > >=20 > > - "" moves the cursor to the previous suffix.=20 > > "" moves the cursor to the next suffix. "RET" invokes=20 > > the suffix the cursor is on.=20 > > - "" invokes the clicked on suffix. - "C-s" and "C-r"=20= > > start isearch in the popup buffer.=20 > > =20 > >> Rudolf Adamkovi=C4=8D writes:=20 > >>=20 > >>> Philip Kaludercic writes:=20 > >>>=20 > >>>> On the other hand something has always felt off about=20 > >>>> transient, in the sense that it is breaking some expected=20 > >>>> behaviour or couldn't pin-point yet, but just unconsciously=20 > >>>> stumble over. =20 > >>>=20 > >>> This is exactly how I feel about the "modern" interfaces in=20 > >>> Emacs. I reported a bug in Embark recently, and because I=20 > >>> could not select and copy the text, I ended up re-typing the=20 > >>> text that was right in front of me in Emacs. Say what=3F For me,= =20 > >>> Emacs is a program where I expect to never waste time=20 > >>> re-typing anything. Magit has a similar feel to it, and I can=20= > >>> never be sure if the program will allow me to select text in=20 > >>> the diverse parts of its user interface. In my opinion, such=20 > >>> uncertainty is bad for power users. I would expect this from=20 > >>> Apple or Microsoft software, because their latest =E2=80=9CUX=20= > >>> designers=E2=80=9D surely know better than anyone, but in Emacs=3F= =20 > >>=20 > >> I am not sure if this is something specific to modern=20 > >> interfaces, or rather an overreaching when it comes to binding.=20= > >> After a while I managed to "pin-point" what was irritating me,=20= > >> and it was the missing ability to search (something that I seem=20= > >> to do so passively that i didn't even notice it). Having C-s=20 > >> work is especially useful when there are a lot of transient=20 > >> options. This cannot be solved by binding C-s manually, as just=20= > >> because that might work for me, there is some other behaviour=20 > >> someone else is expecting (eg. your example of selecting and=20 > >> copying text).=20 > >>=20 > >> What I understand transient and certain other packages do is=20 > >> basically override most keys, even those it doesn't use. This=20 > >> is more invasive than special-mode, that just doesn't bind=20 > >> self-insert-command to most keys. What I wonder is why this is=20= > >> done/why it might be necessary.=20 > >>=20 > >>> R+=20 > >=20 > > -- =20 > >=20 > > Thanks,=20 > >=20 > > --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =E2=99=88 Id:=20= > > kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE=20 >=20 > --=20 > "Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be;=20= > and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's=20= > logic." -- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass Rudolf=20 > Adamkovi=C4=8D Studenohorsk=C3=A1 25 84103 Bratisla= va=20 > Slovakia [he/him] --=20 Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =E2=99=89 Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE -- Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) ♉ Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 🦮