From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "T.V Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stepping Back: A Wealth Of Completion systems Re: [ELPA] New package: vertico Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 07:31:06 -0700 Message-ID: <24685.49706.280496.205283@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> References: <9c9af088-580f-9fb1-4d79-237a74ce605c@inventati.org> <874kgkxxs0.fsf@posteo.net> <3ec7e2e58a100426a22e@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35156"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: philipk@posteo.net, raman@google.com, manuel.uberti@inventati.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: gregory@heytings.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 07 16:37:00 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lU9Ii-000936-0i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 16:37:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60250 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lU9Ih-0001ye-0H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:36:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40608) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lU9D6-0003Gw-PJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:31:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]:37422) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lU9D4-0003zw-MI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:31:12 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id mj7-20020a17090b3687b029014d162a65b6so1397544pjb.2 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 07:31:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:date:to:cc :subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=yEwv6xGVc7bQ1kDC8WQ/aPM8Zit0tGOaHwxun8AmUbw=; b=cKWXYimhnhUNhqa+VSW1xgyqzIjVL3zBJ27rrOvO5FjuHyUxUewhox8l90kg5Z6k98 OkhVkEpNWiVcwOqPaEAsGVUv89ckW/E0kSYQEebm7+fCiAcVL1JiOiQpri9yAf594C/w OtI2KY2TKaEIue86z42Ba9z8aTCZoWjG+G+OWHH3bAg8vc07VNTqDFflvlv+5LzGKhsI i7PtcWtnDmzZQh7TK/xJ5ry6fKn5oIm1xP9YMZ8dG/v48IJndMCsAJO0EJatKazvEIJr T5wg55EvyFtLJ3NB5mndp+V6b+mrSIHX/qtMMQA9Sc/iFPuwgxUFdMgk4A+ldjlqRst5 QUgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:date:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=yEwv6xGVc7bQ1kDC8WQ/aPM8Zit0tGOaHwxun8AmUbw=; b=giKTruhkTC916bHy+mHJcOCSmeBifxowqcyzmW/owpUlIo9UZnhwFy4e+LLnq+PqRA FUrbwMFEW+M88PNAJb1bSanCy0feuhmuQ6V00oCD+sWtRZrXwQUZKvtBcUmpaTQU8iGv XnHbVFAaeeROV0vofg6rIc8rLuBNQRKdY6hsbiLszdx1/JCWvt5hhaGtWvxcrMnlis7o rujbv8dI0UuPxnZtc5HDvJOuqA8M2q6gbHGd2yddV7bwedeniWwE+6ppYYBolTrMfLSP hxqO0DC2MiRJdoz3oD78JoFbCarx6Fx7CYVc3iciYYxAsLLakmQJiToa7xHikhJXU6OY oLFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Dj7UdjngTSxFrMWOWsxA9VdhAwI+h1nH5CbUaDY+lskitnSCf kXH/YoFnLrjFFDjxEhpFpI9PfpRZmFQafQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzDwcC2mCNHN77BeZPBY/BpEdRrM4DMfuSbPE+W8B+VPrRmmjRr3O4QuAHQ6iaaNFUL4SM5Gg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:14c3:: with SMTP id k61mr3565521pja.206.1617805868256; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 07:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from retriever.mtv.corp.google.com ([2620:0:1000:1510:357b:863:8a:e957]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v123sm21215201pfb.80.2021.04.07.07.31.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 07:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by retriever.mtv.corp.google.com (Postfix, from userid 13930) id 562821800227; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 07:31:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3ec7e2e58a100426a22e@heytings.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 28.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1036.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -175 X-Spam_score: -17.6 X-Spam_bar: ----------------- X-Spam_report: (-17.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:267521 Archived-At: I tend to agree with you. Especially with fuzzy matching, emacs complete/select pretty much collapse into one, exceptions are things like avy which allow you to pick a choice based on the position of the choice in the list of choices. Gregory Heytings writes: >=20 > > > > I have the feeling all these completion systems are encouraging=20= > > confusion around how to use completing-read. That is the 0th point= that=20 > > is missing here: Are you completing (expanding text) or selecting=20= > > (narrowing options). > > >=20 > I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure I understand what th= e real=20 > difference between "completing" and "selecting" is. Do I understand= =20 > correctly that the difference is between, for example, expanding com= mand=20 > names (completing), and choosing an emoji in a list (selecting)=3F >=20 > > > > It might therefore be necessary to actually implement a "selecting= -read"=20 > > function, that could be used more or less like completing-read, bu= t that=20 > > provides a better default UI not based around completing text but=20= > > actually selecting objects/items. > > >=20 > Given that Emacs is primarily keyboard-driven, it seems to me that t= he=20 > most efficient way to select an item is, and will always be, to use = a=20 > textual representation of the items in the list to select them. C-x= 8 RET=20 > does this, you (can) select an unicode character with its name. For= =20 > example C-x 8 RET inf RET inserts the infinity symbol. Or course yo= u=20 > could also navigate through the ~45000 unicode characters to select = the=20 > one you want, but that would be far less efficient. --=20 =E2=99=89Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE=E2=99=89 -- ♉Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 🦮♉