From: "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com>
To: philipk@posteo.net
Cc: raman@google.com, manuel.uberti@inventati.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Stepping Back: A Wealth Of Completion systems Re: [ELPA] New package: vertico
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 13:55:19 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <24683.31031.582779.986721@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <874kgkxxs0.fsf@posteo.net>
That too:-)
As I said, I think of all of this broadly as a collection of
experiments, but we also need to harvest some long term results.
In addition to all I cited earlier, consider company and auto-complete
as added to the list.
If you broaden further, then you also have lsp and eglot as two ways
of bringing in lsp-servers as a backend, and again those help with
completion, so we have a lot of lego blocks, many of which fit
pairwise but at this point it's reaching a level of complexity that
doesn't likely fit in any one brain, and when that happens, you
usually see people creating more lego blocks ...
Philip Kaludercic writes:
>
> I guess I can bring up a point I've been meaning to raise here for a
> while, and have discussed on other forums.
>
> > 1. Where invoked -- anywhere in emacs vs minibuffer.
> > 2. When invoked -- as in find-file and friends vs everywhere
> > something prompts in the minibuffer.
> > 3. Using what? the various backends that populate the available
> > choices.
> > 4. How displayed: How the choices are displayed -- horizontal,
> > vertical, and perhaps 3-d in the future.
> > 5. How completed: tab, vs prefix vs fuzzy completion vs ...
>
> I have the feeling all these completion systems are encouraging
> confusion around how to use completing-read. That is the 0th point that
> is missing here: Are you completing (expanding text) or selecting
> (narrowing options).
>
> Most completion frameworks I have looked at seem to limit themselves to
> the latter. To simplify, they collect all the options of a collection
> using all-completions and then narrow it depending on user input. Ido
> and all it's descendents (Ivy, Helm, Selectrum and now vertico) seem to
> be based on that approach.
>
> Try-completion for partial completion seems to only be used by the
> default completion system, which I think is a shame. I noticed this when
> implementing a completion-style based on Peter Norvig's spell
> checker[0], that would recognize minor typos such as M-x
> evla-buffer. IIRC this kind of behaviour is not strictly correct for a
> completing style, but that is another matter.
>
> The issue I see here is how packages (in and outside of Emacs) use
> completing-read. When package developers that use these newer completion
> frameworks test their functions, they might tend to assume that
> completing-read means "selecting-read", i.e. the user is presented a
> list of options that they can choose from. A personal example is a
> package I created a while back to insert eastern emoticons[1]
> (¯\_(ツ)_/¯, ´ ▽ ` )ノ, Σ ◕ ◡ ◕, ...), that was convenient to use with
> Ivy but since I have stopped using it has become inconvenient, as I
> don't have most of the letters on my keyboard to complete such an
> emoticon.
>
> Nevertheless completing-read seems to have satisfied an existing need
> for a simple mechanism to implement selection. There are packages in
> Emacs that do this, but they all have to re-implement selection
> interfaces, as there is no default way of doing it (that I know
> of). Think of recentf's menu or more complex examples such as reftex's
> TOC, that includes hierarchical structures.
>
> It might therefore be necessary to actually implement a "selecting-read"
> function, that could be used more or less like completing-read, but that
> provides a better default UI not based around completing text but
> actually selecting objects/items.
>
> [0] https://norvig.com/spell-correct.html
> [1] https://git.sr.ht/~zge/kaomoji
>
> --
> Philip K.
>
--
♉Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 🦮♉
--
♉Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 🦮♉
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-04-05 20:55 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 178+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-04-05 10:22 [ELPA] New package: vertico Daniel Mendler
2021-04-05 14:27 ` Manuel Uberti
2021-04-05 18:30 ` Stepping Back: A Wealth Of Completion systems " T.V Raman
2021-04-05 20:49 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-05 20:55 ` T.V Raman [this message]
2021-04-06 6:45 ` Arthur Miller
2021-04-06 15:15 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-06 15:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-07 12:09 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 12:23 ` Joost Kremers
2021-04-07 12:56 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 18:55 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 13:05 ` Yuri Khan
2021-04-07 13:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-07 14:15 ` Philip Kaludercic
[not found] ` <87eefm5fzl.fsf@posteo.net>
[not found] ` <3ec7e2e58a106c77370d@heytings.org>
2021-04-07 14:33 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 15:17 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 16:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-07 16:32 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 16:20 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 16:57 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 18:19 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 19:13 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 19:47 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 20:03 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 22:31 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-09 6:21 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-09 8:53 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-09 17:22 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-09 18:51 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-07 23:07 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 19:24 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 18:19 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 18:13 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-07 15:24 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 16:10 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 16:49 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 17:40 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 17:48 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 19:22 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 19:03 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 14:31 ` T.V Raman
2021-04-07 16:02 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-07 18:18 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-09 6:40 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2021-04-10 4:20 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-07 18:49 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 20:33 ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-09 11:12 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 13:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-07 14:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-07 14:55 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 21:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-07 22:59 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-08 0:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-08 14:44 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-08 16:40 ` T.V Raman
2021-04-08 17:53 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-08 17:57 ` T.V Raman
2021-04-08 17:21 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-08 18:03 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-08 18:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-09 4:21 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-09 23:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 4:31 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-09 5:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-09 23:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-09 23:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 1:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 4:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 13:11 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 21:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-11 22:07 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-11 22:10 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-11 21:52 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 22:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-12 1:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-12 4:16 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-14 0:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 7:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 10:53 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 11:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 10:52 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 11:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 12:43 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 13:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 14:26 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 10:56 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-10 11:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 11:37 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-11 12:24 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 12:58 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-11 13:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 13:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 17:16 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 18:36 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-11 21:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 13:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 15:32 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-11 15:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 15:55 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-11 16:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 14:14 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-10 13:13 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 11:11 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-10 13:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 13:40 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-11 21:52 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 7:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 14:40 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 15:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 0:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 14:40 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 0:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 11:18 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 13:31 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-11 15:53 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-12 9:24 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-12 10:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-12 10:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-12 11:30 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-12 16:28 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-12 18:36 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-12 19:01 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-12 19:21 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-12 23:39 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-13 2:06 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-11 13:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 16:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 16:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 17:39 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 18:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-12 13:59 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-13 23:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-21 9:20 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-21 9:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 10:27 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-21 12:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 12:50 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-21 13:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 14:25 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-21 15:43 ` Yuri Khan
2021-04-21 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 19:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 19:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 19:35 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 14:13 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-21 14:35 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 20:31 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-21 13:14 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-21 14:21 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-05 14:59 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-05 15:32 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-05 17:55 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-05 18:10 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-09 21:37 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-09 23:23 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 7:17 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-10 9:33 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 9:44 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-10 10:07 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 13:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 14:07 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 15:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 17:27 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-10 20:58 ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-10 7:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 9:21 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 9:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 9:38 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 10:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 10:14 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 9:38 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-10 10:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
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