From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "T.V Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Opening Up More Keymaps Re: Standardizing more key bindings? Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 13:51:10 -0700 Message-ID: <24436.61374.577021.787402@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> References: <24436.53239.437810.270641@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> <24436.58187.698211.262192@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7925"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: raman@google.com, thibaut.verron@gmail.com, dgutov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 30 23:08:09 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kNjKb-0001yR-Np for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 23:08:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40894 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNjKa-0005ot-QW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 17:08:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39022) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNj4L-0007bn-B9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 16:51:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]:45829) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNj4F-0006yj-HG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 16:51:21 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id x22so2077965pfo.12 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 13:51:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:date:to:cc :subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=Iqz3i7r0hq3vCl30xOyNU2aMi1PRfC37shtaP45G5Io=; b=FgkTcmpQ69nWf4XxLuYWw/U/zFdRHoMbJI+qnFooReo9uLng+2S30IPGYsstfU+7gF 9WFTnJ27XeZBmc0cVBpqUrnQRa+ZXIMddb08CZZd5VTVSmTM3oTB5B28saFOb3bgy5S+ oRO5qF6pc3xjQyxxq1YG4wbDmT2d2O/osLQi5Ya/S6pcvw1iB5WzlZvYKWp6f9e77U24 Ow7b8hZjk1I6LF7/eRGGaJTMutYBwdp56Ip/8BPc3YtdBbKeQmu03v0zPaEVvydnP7OP 3CE2dBhN9s2qCX4bpWCdjv7K8t2tTb7/lo4jDx+nMPdEGy1GvJl0D9NI68POQA37A6wR UMoQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:date:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=Iqz3i7r0hq3vCl30xOyNU2aMi1PRfC37shtaP45G5Io=; b=SVV8Q8Prhyqlcno+L4ZkYWINIq9NPf5LlfSKu9SJIr4nMzDUvE35zKeLnO23IUrDEU UO15Jm2EKtmMyyf35KJr6vjD3obVey9Hexp4hEQNYceBjTIcoGtFs/oqtnK7driOOwyW FMmFis6wDCbo4oDVgGZvj3kAEX15ZBTes6l/SOqfu0vDp8st6TzfqbKYSgi9B3F1ZFc7 /ugbwCjK01dNEQb3gAYzVTu5MEJLav0JD5ukkG6YEuBCX1OE4UKF8zdLZnRTdYG+kZJp Z61EBBxob41AsaQikA8VaqfffmCQBqbz94jmFB2IDgwSBpp1Zow0TC+qshbgoTjZj+gt XGNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531LbFfFksXC8eKd986xg/o2JeHuk1bkz4sNTw1agsst4cHUPIb4 JDHhIMX0ZbP1qpDfZk4YKw1OVw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwdadjvq5zbXiMVL2wxwdrS/S74KVLde5h4VVwKZkyAkKfTfZR08anZ7WrZ2uyEwkjbJZU4EQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:14cc:b029:142:2501:3988 with SMTP id w12-20020a056a0014ccb029014225013988mr4219573pfu.77.1601499072612; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 13:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from retriever.mtv.corp.google.com ([2620:0:1000:1510:7220:84ff:fe0f:a150]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c9sm3449480pfn.78.2020.09.30.13.51.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 30 Sep 2020 13:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by retriever.mtv.corp.google.com (Postfix, from userid 13930) id 9E48E180039B; Wed, 30 Sep 2020 13:51:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 28.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pf1-x42e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -180 X-Spam_score: -18.1 X-Spam_bar: ------------------ X-Spam_report: (-18.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.499, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256804 Archived-At: I can relate to the muscle memory, but was hoping that emacs 28 feature of echoing partial key-sequences would help. The fact remains that keyboards are not getting any more keys any time soon, and given that existing prefix keys are already used in one way or another, we dont have much wiggleroom. Anyway, time to move on, just keep this around as an idea for experimentation if we ever get around to a set of related commands, eg, for programming environments etc=20 Stefan Monnier writes: > > that's an interesting perspective. Am surprized that you feel tty= > > users would find C-z z significantly harder than just C-z as the k= ey > > to suspend Emacs. >=20 > I assume tty users have "C-z to suspend" hardwired in their fingers = and > would be quite surprised if any application decides to use another > binding for it. >=20 >=20 > Stefan >=20 >=20 > > Stefan Monnier writes: > > > > Since keybindings are a strong emotional issue, I was hoping= to > > > > divide and conquer the problem, i.e. first free up a new pref= ix key, > > > > then experiment by putting a set of related commands on that= key -- > > > > rather than chasing our tails with arguments over which key t= o start with. > > >=20 > > > I think `C-z` is fair game in GUI but freeing it up for other u= ses in tty > > > mode will be a very hard sell. This leaves it as "free for GUI= -only > > > bindings" which makes it much less useful than a true "free pre= fix keymap". > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Stefan > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > > Stefan Monnier writes: > > > > > > 1. C-z as a prefix --- at present c-z runs suspend-fra= me under X, and > > > > > > suspends Emacs on the console. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Then again, `C-z` is a standard binding for `undo`. ;-) > > > > >=20 > > > > > > Perhaps turn C-z into a new prefix key, and bind the = above commands > > > > > > to C-z z -- that gives us a whole new keymap to play = with for the > > > > > > future. > > > > >=20 > > > > > It's true that there's some logic to use C-z, C-x, and C-c= for standard > > > > > prefix keys. Yet, I think this can only make sense if we = have a clear > > > > > idea of what kinds of bindings we'd put into this prefix. > > > > >=20 > > > > > > 2. F2 is currently taken up by 2c (2column support) a= nd perhaps it's > > > > > > time to recover that key, I suspect 2c is not as h= eavily used to > > > > > > justify a common key like F2, and it would still h= ave C-x 6 > > > > > > dedicated to it if we take F2 away from it. > > > > >=20 > > > > > I agree that the binding of `f2` to `2C-command` can be dr= opped. > > > > > Not sure what to bind it to instead, OTOH. > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > Stefan > > > > > > > > --=20 > > > > =E2=99=89Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE=E2=99=89 > > > > --=20 > > =E2=99=89Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE=E2=99=89 --=20 =E2=99=89Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE=E2=99=89 -- ♉Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 🦮♉