Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

What's the upstream source for this file?

I ask because the license is included by URL reference, and from a
preliminary look, the applicable terms of that license appear to vary
depending on the original source (path) of the file.

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org>
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 09:31:59 -0500
> 
> 
> What's the upstream source for this file?

The license for all data files distributed by the Unicode Consortium
is here:

  http://www.unicode.org/copyright.html#Exhibit1

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> The license for all data files distributed by the Unicode Consortium
> is here:
>
>   http://www.unicode.org/copyright.html#Exhibit1

I saw that, and guessed the file was covered by Exhibit 1, but needed to
determine that for sure.  i.e. from which path listed in Exhibit 1 does
it originate?

  Unicode Data Files include all data files under the directories
  http://www.unicode.org/Public/, http://www.unicode.org/reports/, and
  http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data/. Unicode Data Files do not include PDF
  online code charts under the directory
  http://www.unicode.org/Public/. Software includes any source code
  published in the Unicode Standard or under the directories
  http://www.unicode.org/Public/, http://www.unicode.org/reports/, and
  http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data/.

(I did see that the file is referred to by the report (UTS 37), which is
 under http://www.unicode.org/reports/ (and hence likely covered by
 Exhibit 1), but assuming I didn't overlook it, the actual content of
 IVD_Sequences.txt isn't actually in that report.)

In any case, I haven't done a full recursive search of all the paths
listed above yet, since I suspected someone here would already know the
details.

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 10:45:51 -0500
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The license for all data files distributed by the Unicode Consortium
> > is here:
> >
> >   http://www.unicode.org/copyright.html#Exhibit1
> 
> I saw that, and guessed the file was covered by Exhibit 1, but needed to
> determine that for sure.  i.e. from which path listed in Exhibit 1 does
> it originate?

The file is in http://www.unicode.org/ivd/.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> The file is in http://www.unicode.org/ivd/.

As far as I can tell, that's not listed as one of the Exhibit 1 paths.
Is there some other reason we know it's Exhibit 1 material?

i.e. perhaps it's "source code published in the Unicode Standard", or
it's also included within one of the listed paths?

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:53:35 -0500
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The file is in http://www.unicode.org/ivd/.
> 
> As far as I can tell, that's not listed as one of the Exhibit 1 paths.
> Is there some other reason we know it's Exhibit 1 material?

It's a data file.

Look, if you need the definitive legal opinion, please ask the Unicode
guys.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> It's a data file.
>
> Look, if you need the definitive legal opinion, please ask the Unicode
> guys.

OK, thanks -- I just thought it'd already be known, and was trying to
expedite the Debian 24.4 packaging, since the Debian ftpmasters will
consider the question before inclusion.

-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Glenn Morris]

The answer is not immediately obvious to me either.
I hope this doesn't turn into one of Those Issues...
Hopefully it is just an oversight/lack of clarity on the unicode website.

But it's only used for Emacs on Mac OS X, so if it speeds things up you
could just strip it (and src/macuvs.h) out from your packages.
Obviously that's more work; sorry.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> But it's only used for Emacs on Mac OS X, so if it speeds things up you
> could just strip it (and src/macuvs.h) out from your packages.
> Obviously that's more work; sorry.

Actually, for us, I think that should be trivially easy right now.

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Glenn Morris]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Look, if you need the definitive legal opinion, please ask the Unicode
> guys.

Do you know what address to use for that?

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> Do you know what address to use for that?

There was at least a contact link on the site (hidden without
javascript) that leads here:

   http://www.unicode.org/reporting.html

-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Glenn Morris]

Rob Browning wrote:

> There was at least a contact link on the site (hidden without
> javascript) that leads here:
>
>    http://www.unicode.org/reporting.html

Thanks. Did you/will you ask them?
Otherwise I will do it, but probably not right now.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> Thanks. Did you/will you ask them?
> Otherwise I will do it, but probably not right now.

I haven't yet, and probably won't immediately.

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Paul Eggert]

Glenn Morris wrote:

>>     http://www.unicode.org/reporting.html
>
> Thanks. Did you/will you ask them?
> Otherwise I will do it, but probably not right now.

I just now asked them there.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:

> Glenn Morris wrote:
>
>>>     http://www.unicode.org/reporting.html
>>
>> Thanks. Did you/will you ask them?
>> Otherwise I will do it, but probably not right now.
>
> I just now asked them there.

Hey, did you ever hear anything back?  I ask because I'm working on
merging emacs-26.1 into Debian and it looks like there may be
additional, related files.

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Paul Eggert]

Rob Browning wrote:
> Hey, did you ever hear anything back?

Not that I recall, no.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Rob Browning]

Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:

> Rob Browning wrote:
>> Hey, did you ever hear anything back?
>
> Not that I recall, no.

OK, thanks.  I suppose we'll see what's involved in separating them.
For what it's worth, it looks like in Debian we'll also need to separate

  etc/schema/od-manifest-schema-v1.2-os.rnc
  etc/schema/od-schema-v1.2-os.rnc

from main because they appear to allow no modifications.

Thanks
-- 
Rob Browning
rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org
GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A
GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Cc: Rob Browning <rlb@defaultvalue.org>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 15:51:21 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > Look, if you need the definitive legal opinion, please ask the Unicode
> > guys.
> 
> Do you know what address to use for that?

Surprisingly, unicode@unicode.org.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

In this case, asking the Unicode Consortium seems reasonable.
However, in general, people should not be quick to ask some other
party for its interpretation of some license.  If there might be a
dispute with some other organization, we should get legal advice from
our own lawyers, not from their lawyers.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Richard Stallman writes:

 > In this case, asking the Unicode Consortium seems reasonable.
 > However, in general, people should not be quick to ask some other
 > party for its interpretation of some license.

Is there a question of interpretation here?  I thought that the issue
was whether the license applies at all or not (AIUI it appears not to
apply, although IMO the intent is for it to apply), which is legally
quite a different kettle of fish.

Re: Origin of IVD_Sequences.txt

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

     > In this case, asking the Unicode Consortium seems reasonable.
     > However, in general, people should not be quick to ask some other
     > party for its interpretation of some license.

    Is there a question of interpretation here?  I thought that the issue
    was whether the license applies at all or not (AIUI it appears not to
    apply, although IMO the intent is for it to apply), which is legally
    quite a different kettle of fish.

What I said applies to ANY legal question about
dealing with some other entity's publications or claims.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.