From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: "'PJ Weisberg'" <pj@irregularexpressions.net>
Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
'Stefan Monnier' <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
larsi@gnus.org, 'Eli Zaretskii' <eliz@gnu.org>,
miles@gnu.org
Subject: RE: smtp crap
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:02 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20FFD44DE7DF42C78FDDA3EF06397A78@us.oracle.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAJsNXT=C0vS8LJcSwNd2H=SwEjgj+hNSg-M2hDTesgZ+5ASovQ@mail.gmail.com>
> > But MOST importantly, what about reporting bugs with `emacs -Q'?
> >
> > That is the real problem here, and the one that you keep
> > ignoring. Instead, you keep focusing on the problem of
> > customization, which is, relatively speaking, no big deal
> > (assuming you finish fixing the repeated-interrogation bugs).
>
> No, that's not the real problem.
To me it is. It is a more important problem than how to help users configure
Emacs to use email.
> There are two problems:
> (1) What should Emacs do when the user asks it to send an email?
> (2) What should Emacs do when the user asks it to report a bug?
Agreed.
> This series of questions is appropriate in scenario 1, but not in
> scenario 2.
I would say that _some email configuration UI_ is appropriate for #1, but not
for #2.
But "some config UI" does not imply "this series of questions".
I don't really care too much (personally) about what UI is used for #1. But
(FWIW) my advice would be for Emacs to (a) not _initiate_ that UI but only
provide it upon _user request_ and (b) probably not offer it as a sequence of
questions (e.g. wizard) at all, but rather as a form (e.g. checkboxes) to fill
in. Look at how other apps help users configure email, for some inspiration...
> (Especially with `emacs -Q', which causes an already-configured
> Emacs to explicitly ignore its configuration.)
Exactly. This is important. It should be the starting point.
The fact that the UI interrogation-sequence-from-hell was (initially) completely
backward (see the bugs, some of which have been fixed), and that it is still,
well, weird, reflects the fact that this was NOT the starting point, even though
the configuration dialog is initiated by the `report-emacs-bug' code.
> The fact that the two scenarios are related is an implementation
> detail of report-emacs-bug.
It might be currently, but it should not be.
> The argument Drew is making would disappear instantly if
> report-emacs-bug sent an HTTP POST request, for instance.
Yes. But in that case Drew would argue that we should still also let users
report bugs using email. On this I support Richard's stance: users should be
able to report bugs using email. AND they should be able to do so using HTTP.
We should make it as easy as possible for a user to report an Emacs bug,
especially using `emacs -Q'. That should be the priority - the rest is
secondary, IMHO. And yes, this _should_ be a no-brainer.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2011-10-11 16:24 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 94+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2011-10-08 2:02 smtp crap Miles Bader
2011-10-08 4:14 ` Chong Yidong
2011-10-08 6:17 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-08 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-08 7:03 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-08 13:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-08 14:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-09 14:50 ` Sivaram Neelakantan
2011-10-09 23:58 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-10 11:19 ` Richard Riley
2011-10-08 14:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-09 5:53 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-10 21:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-10 22:05 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-10 22:08 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-10 22:12 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 3:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 5:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 4:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 5:05 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 7:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 12:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 13:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 15:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 18:51 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 19:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 19:46 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-11 21:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 22:24 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-12 1:12 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-12 13:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-12 14:30 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-14 13:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 20:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 14:53 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 16:00 ` PJ Weisberg
2011-10-11 16:24 ` Drew Adams [this message]
2011-10-11 21:21 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-11 22:00 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 22:41 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-11 22:54 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 22:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-11 23:11 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-12 0:01 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-12 8:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-12 14:04 ` Jason Rumney
2011-10-12 14:33 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-12 1:30 ` Chong Yidong
2011-10-12 3:22 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-12 4:50 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-12 6:33 ` joakim
2011-10-12 8:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-12 10:24 ` joakim
2011-10-12 11:32 ` Juanma Barranquero
2011-10-12 9:12 ` Lennart Borgman
2011-10-12 14:16 ` Jason Rumney
2011-10-12 14:34 ` Lennart Borgman
2011-10-12 14:47 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-12 15:21 ` Lennart Borgman
2011-10-12 11:29 ` Juanma Barranquero
2011-10-12 8:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2011-10-08 8:17 ` David Engster
2011-10-08 8:52 ` Bastien
2011-10-08 12:36 ` Miles Bader
2011-10-08 14:10 ` Harry Putnam
2011-10-10 21:38 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-10 22:06 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-10-11 2:09 ` Glenn Morris
2011-10-11 5:10 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 3:38 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-10 22:08 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 0:34 ` Miles Bader
2011-10-11 3:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 4:20 ` Miles Bader
2011-10-11 4:41 ` chad
2011-10-11 5:34 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-11 5:03 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-11 5:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 5:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-11 5:38 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-26 17:58 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-26 18:14 ` Adam Sjøgren
2011-10-26 21:48 ` chad
2011-10-26 22:32 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-26 23:13 ` chad
2011-10-27 0:08 ` Drew Adams
2011-10-27 2:51 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-10-27 0:23 ` Tim Cross
2011-10-27 1:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2011-10-09 1:28 ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2011-10-09 6:06 ` Miles Bader
2011-10-09 14:55 ` Michael Welsh Duggan
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2011-10-08 2:08 Miles Bader
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