From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Marcel Ventosa Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 09:58:50 +0700 Message-ID: <20201018095850.2409cefb@argon> References: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201013052736.GE31408@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201016130235.06218dae@argon> <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> <20201016152523.6fdfef65@argon> <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> <20201016204531.77fab05b@argon> <725aa7c4-321f-4483-5a21-a148ff7f119b@yandex.ru> <20201016213312.603595fe@argon> <20201017184036.12095175@argon> <1c8fed50-e124-6d62-466a-0392b9379e2e@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34235"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Thibaut Verron , Richard Stallman , Jean Louis , emacs-devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 18 04:59:56 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTyvL-0008ql-Se for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 04:59:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34802 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTyvK-0004CF-Ui for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:59:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47628) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTyun-0003ku-Vy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:59:22 -0400 Original-Received: from aibo.runbox.com ([91.220.196.211]:45018) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTyuk-0007uP-A9; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:59:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=runbox.com; s=selector1; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version: References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=f7GMMJ43B2amzh1bCKU+RNKp0uLrJo1rUDlvkm0hbi8=; b=jd7N4NeJAqW6YdOv/z8tgchqMW RO+jQ5gDub0VcvSm7VZqEDh09q5YwcmivJU1umxgVtst3yRqWFtQEH/l8YteSJz0IkXq8pnT15KDJ Cnh+PZcMjje+FAkLm/im6gD74ANvrPcQh6i1y4fCI0uB1E274FXWH8oZA7hBIrQWWYrlMazWC8Zl9 LcEKfSLndW9Nd1+uafftpaiBTopWlYxltcD+zfuKL0F8ddTVYUihYu4EN7XBFmbY2MeKy9cIkyPX1 sGpLDorMlF4gFbLMU1KkDe/CySKmivhJN6C+fal9OwZcA2UwLDHEDitT3oEkJGgw9xJ0CGO/BcPUg Qv4ujTMg==; Original-Received: from [10.9.9.72] (helo=submission01.runbox) by mailtransmit02.runbox with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kTyug-00081T-KO; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 04:59:14 +0200 Original-Received: by submission01.runbox with esmtpsa [Authenticated alias (585453)] (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) id 1kTyuQ-0006SB-AY; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 04:58:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1c8fed50-e124-6d62-466a-0392b9379e2e@yandex.ru> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.7 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=91.220.196.211; envelope-from=mve1@runbox.com; helo=aibo.runbox.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/17 22:59:15 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -24 X-Spam_score: -2.5 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257983 Archived-At: The original discussion involved the following: - Richard suggested a survey with open questions (There is no need to mention any repository in an open question). - MELPA contains packages that promote proprietary software. - If MELPA *had* to be mentioned in the survey, Richard suggested mentioning it with a disclaimer to abide by GNU policy and warn unsuspecting survey takers. With respect, I don't see the point of discussing off-topic tangents or responding to apagogical arguments. P.S. For the record, I never provided examples of proprietary software. On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:51:54 +0300 Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 17.10.2020 14:40, Marcel Ventosa wrote: > > >> So we won't suggest ELPA as an option either? What about the users > >> who don't know the difference? MELPA is also an ELPA, after all (as > >> in "Emacs Lisp Package Archive"). > > > > Is it a survey then or is it an opportunity to "educate/advertise?" > > > > Somebody else already explained that a poll where only one of the > options is written and others are free-form will be biased anyway. > > >>> I > >>> would think it should be guided, for the most part, by what the > >>> people putting their time into it want to create, within the > >>> principles of the philosophy of the project and its goals. > > > >> It's not a painting or a novel. It's a software project, with > >> certain expectations of practicality. > > > > Are you claiming Emacs is not practical? > > It's less practical than it could be. > > And you seem to be claiming it doesn't need to. > > >>> If they are not, Emacs makes it quite simple to implement changes > >>> for personal "improvements". I have written functions that serve > >>> me personally and change the behavior of Emacs to suit my needs. > >>> There are limits to what I can do, which could be pushed if I > >>> dedicated a greater effort to do so. How is that unfair? > > > >> You're veering the discussion off to the side for some reason. > > > > I'm explaining how easy it is to modify Emacs to suit particular > > needs, and listing the possibilities that already exist for doing > > so. > > Why are you explaining that to an Emacs developer? > > >> But if we're talking of "unfair", releasing Emacs under GPL, > >> enabling such excellent extensibility that multiple communities > >> spring up over years, ones brimming with creativity and people > >> dedicating years of their spare time to the extensions, and then > >> badmouthing them from afar as though they violated some existing > >> contract (social or legal), *that* is unfair. > > > > It is GNU policy not to promote or encourage proprietary software. > > Those are not objective words, but a matter of opinion, to say the > least. > > > To > > the extent that any community does so, GNU must not promote or > > encourage that community. > > You are saying that, by mentioning MELPA is the poll, GNU would > promote MELPA. Right? > > Are you promoting proprietary software by saying the phrase > "proprietary software", over and over, on this mailing list? And even > giving examples sometimes. > > > I fail to see what injustice has been perpetrated on the > > MELPA maintainers here, or how they have been badmouthed. > > Saying "MELPA promotes proprietary software" is like saying that GNU > project promotes, I don't know... late-stage capitalism. Just by the > virtue of being mostly developed in a capitalist country, and by > being useful to many organizations participating in capitalist > economies with high degree of inequality. > > Or that it promotes proprietary software by providing support for > some of it. > > Let's disregard its mission, and all virtues and accomplishments, > shall we?