From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 00:50:06 +0300 Message-ID: <20201016215006.GS11061@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> <20201016152523.6fdfef65@argon> <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> <20201016204531.77fab05b@argon> <20201016190846.GI11061@protected.rcdrun.com> <70ea157a-967c-4145-9dc7-1cfc215ad9a0@default> <20201016201547.GP11061@protected.rcdrun.com> <56c8a227-6c1d-4456-8c13-d0c87186c653@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6959"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.14.0 (2020-05-02) Cc: Marcel Ventosa , Dmitry Gutov , Richard Stallman , Thibaut Verron , emacs-devel To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 16 23:51:28 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTXdI-0001gi-7Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 23:51:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45034 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTXdH-0006SD-9o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 17:51:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44412) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTXcB-0005sT-Qj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 17:50:19 -0400 Original-Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:45945) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTXc9-0001TU-T4; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 17:50:19 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.210.154.50]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002A0B3D.000000005F8A1597.00007C4F; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 21:50:14 +0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56c8a227-6c1d-4456-8c13-d0c87186c653@default> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/16 12:33:49 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257879 Archived-At: * Drew Adams [2020-10-17 00:02]: > GNU Emacs is not generally a commodity. (It's always > a product. Not every product is a commodity, even in > what is generally a "market" economy.) > Commodity production: Products are produced with an eye to being > sold. Selling and sales value are taken into account during > production - they are part of the character of the product, as > commodity. This is _production for exchange_. Not necessarily, products can be natural, produced by nature, collected and sold, it can be still a product and commodity. It need not have a vision to be sold. Example are minerals, example are natural products collected by people and sold, let us say forest mushrooms, it is product and commodity. GNU Emacs was sold by GNU and is (probably) sold today by various Emacs promoters, I guess with books or DVD or similar. If it is sold or not currently does not make it less of a commodity, it could be sold, just as GNU/Linux full OSes can be sold, as nobody forbids it. It is exchangeable for money. Software as a community product and community commodity is exchangeable too, we can see that because it is free software, it moves people to create more free software, share and help others. That is the exchange that Emacs is creating itself. If you consider commodity only that what is exchanged for dollars, consider that before paper currencies there was maybe gold or shelves, or something else, like goats maybe, so at that time you could exchange GNU Emacs for a GNU Goat for example, and it would be just fine commodity without currency. > The notes you write to yourself (in Org mode or whatever) are useful > to you, and they weren't written with an eye to being sold. In particular on my side, I write instruction manuals that I do sell to my clients. Yet I get your point, but see above, products need not have in their creation the purpose to be sold, even though Emacs was sold by GNU project and FSF in past, maybe not today, but it was sold on CDs as source software or bundled with GNU software together, and is sold today by various individuals and companies, sometimes on CD/DVD with the book or instructions, more often in commercial GNU/Linux distributions, it need not be in English language, it can be Japanese language or other countries. GNU/Linux with GNU Emacs is sold here in Uganda, that is what I can say that I have seen practically, you come and you can buy it on DVD all together. So it is part of OS and can be sold with the OS. You probably want to say that it is not common for you to find GNU Emacs being sold, you do not consider it commodity. I am giving you few examples that you see it is indirectly sold, sometimes directly on DVD with books about Emacs, and as part of GNU/Linux distributions, probably other distributions as well. It is probably bundled with many BSD-based OSes as well which are sold as DVD, like shoplinuxonline.com It may not be common to you, as you download it, yet there are people who cannot and who need DVD, and they will buy it. The last big exchange that Emacs is creating is donations to Free Software Foundation and supporting GNU infrastructure and its management. There is nothing wrong calling it a product or commodity. Surely I understand your viewpoint, it is not a common for Emacs to be sold, but it is sold, I gave you few references. It is special commodity of its own kind. Note that there are countries without good Internet access, Internet may be expensive, where DVDs are quite popular in those countries, where software is sold on DVD and not accessible online. It is cheaper to purchase DVD with software then download it in those places. Free software movement have already made OS sellers like Red Hat and so many others to change into different direction, it also introduced it to Microsoft and other proprietary companies, but that all does not make it less of a product, as it is product of human effort, so it is exchangeable, if not for money then for donations, goodwill, contributions to the code, it is exchange of effort, so free software is currency within the community of free software.