From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 23:03:05 +0300 Message-ID: <20201016200305.GO11061@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <20201016130235.06218dae@argon> <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> <20201016152523.6fdfef65@argon> <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> <20201016204531.77fab05b@argon> <725aa7c4-321f-4483-5a21-a148ff7f119b@yandex.ru> <20201016191758.GK11061@protected.rcdrun.com> <86b80c47-873b-5e83-cea0-5ac1927f0015@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33851"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.14.0 (2020-05-02) Cc: Marcel Ventosa , Richard Stallman , Thibaut Verron , emacs-devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 16 22:05:56 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTVz9-0008h8-E0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 22:05:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52626 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTVz8-0008CJ-B1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 16:05:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45846) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTVwc-0007TV-SI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 16:03:18 -0400 Original-Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:44241) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTVwY-0004xq-8S; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 16:03:18 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.210.154.50]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002A0B37.000000005F89FC7F.00006F3E; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 20:03:11 +0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86b80c47-873b-5e83-cea0-5ac1927f0015@yandex.ru> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/16 12:33:49 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257869 Archived-At: * Dmitry Gutov [2020-10-16 22:37]: > > devastating for a repository that is supposed to push free software, > > in other words, repository is hypocritical. > > No, it's supposed to _publish_ free software. Alright, I just think of policies. Imagine if free software repository would publish only software that wraps around proprietary software, would that be free? So it is matter of policy. For same reaso Debian GNU/Linux cannot be said to be free, at many pages they guide users to include non-free software, unspoken from Archlinux or other distributions. So it is just matter of endorsement. > > Would it be only hypocritical without influencing users, fine, but it > > does influence thousands of users and is promoting the download number > > of software that guides users to non-free software, so that is how it > > becomes not ethical. > > Some time ago I read an essay about infighting in the political left > community. How a lot of members choose to find and attack progressively > personal character faults in their fellow activists, instead of working > together and presenting a united front against the capitalist oppressors. > > You can draw an easy parallel to the software community and the struggle vs > proprietary software. That question is best answered here: https://github.com/melpa/melpa/issues/7185 So that is request to remove those packages and to make a policy not to include such, that is best way to raise the issue and see if we are truly together in free software promotion. > But it doesn't work as well if the survey is biased from the outset. But survey is "biased" (opinionated) from beginning, it was not published on emacs-devel initially, it was published on Reddit initially and I am sure there are reasons for initiator for the survey, those reasons may be that whay you call biased, I call it opinions, but not necessarily unjust opinions (biased). It is better to say opinionated. Again I see nothing wrong against opinionated surveys as what Emacs teaches its users it to become opinionated, they constantly try to improve their configurations, themese, etc.