From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 22:52:27 +0300 Message-ID: <20201016195227.GM11061@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <20201016130235.06218dae@argon> <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> <20201016152523.6fdfef65@argon> <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> <20201016204531.77fab05b@argon> <725aa7c4-321f-4483-5a21-a148ff7f119b@yandex.ru> <20201016213312.603595fe@argon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28118"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.14.0 (2020-05-02) Cc: Marcel Ventosa , Richard Stallman , Thibaut Verron , emacs-devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 16 21:55:41 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTVpE-0007BL-Gg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 21:55:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44074 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTVpD-0003hK-5A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:55:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43816) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTVmJ-0001Zo-Em for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:52:40 -0400 Original-Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:41931) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTVmG-0003LR-B3; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:52:38 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.210.154.50]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002A0B37.000000005F89FA01.00006DAC; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 19:52:32 +0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/16 12:33:49 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257867 Archived-At: * Dmitry Gutov [2020-10-16 22:08]: > My argument is that they have done a lot for the community. Some of > those effects reach the core too. That is right, and that still does not mean it is good to endorse MELPA as free software repository as it is for reasons of those packages in question, dangerous for users, as proprietary software in itself is dangerous. It may sound not logical, but contributions are welcome from anybody, and denunciation is good tool to point out to users that GNU and also FSF is not endorsing the non-free software distributions, and also non-free software repositories. > Some Emacs maintainers themselves are known to use proprietary > software. And use Emacs on proprietary OSes. And yet, somehow, MELPA > is the odd one out? Everybody is welcome to contribute to GNU. GNU policies do not mind if developers use proprietary software or operating systems, that is how free software entered proprietary operating systems. It does not matter if Emacs maintainers are themselves using proprietary software as they do not necessarily push or set the policies for the overall GNU project. In any case, everybody is welcome to contribute in creation and maintenance of free software operating systems and its parts. Denunciation would not discriminate between Emacs developers or non Emacs developers, but it would speaking out against publicly distribution of software that purports to be free, but its sole purpose was to run proprietary software or to interact with non-free software or interacting with proprietary Services as Software Substitutes: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html Add your useful voice to Github issue on MELPA, to remove such software packages that wrap proprietary: https://github.com/melpa/melpa/issues/7185 > > Why should Emacs development be guided by (external) survey results? > > Why should it use the scientific method? I think it is far from being scientific. Those few people proposed it who do not have any experience in making a survey. If one has experience, one is not making any questions, one just do it. Finally, it was not a professional opinion poll agency. > > Also, anyone can suggest changes and convince the maintainers that > > these changes are in the best interest of the project (and > > contribute the actual changes if they are accepted). > > No, not "anyone can convince". Just {M-x report-emacs-bug} and they will not ask you for name, birth day, developers will look into the bug report, or suggestion improvement, it is a group decision. If you have something to propose, you are free, and anybody is free, it is so far I know, not even a subscription mailing list, people can write to mailing list without being subscribed, great thing. There are other mailing lists like help-gnu-emacs, also very friendly. I am only sorry for #emacs IRC channel being unfriendly especially towards free software movement at times, but that is due to few who do their personal hate promotion, or have nothing better to do in life, or simply work for proprietary software and hate themselves. > > If they are not, Emacs makes it quite simple to implement changes for > > personal "improvements". I have written functions that serve me > > personally and change the behavior of Emacs to suit my needs. There are > > limits to what I can do, which could be pushed if I dedicated a greater > > effort to do so. How is that unfair? > > You're veering the discussion off to the side for some reason. > > But if we're talking of "unfair", releasing Emacs under GPL, enabling such > excellent extensibility that multiple communities spring up over years, ones > brimming with creativity and people dedicating years of their spare time to > the extensions, and then badmouthing them from afar as though they violated > some existing contract (social or legal), *that* is unfair. Everybody is free to make proprietary software by using Emacs Lisp and run it with Emacs Lisp. So people are also free to sell such proprietary software. GNU is not supporting those communities. Similarly, packages can be made solely for purpose of running proprietary software or interacting with such, or interacting with Service as a Software Substitute, or fetching some proprietary information. When such software is promoted on supposedly free software repository, and free software repository has no clear policy on protecting users' freedom, then it is appropriate to speak out against it. There is maybe no written contract, yet there is unspoken understanding that if person is releasing free software such as Emacs package that such should not use proprietary software, as that defeats the purpose. - Hey brother... I made here one spectacular Emacs package. - wow, great, I hope you have free software license, that I can use it too. - sure it has free software license, fine GPL terms here inside - alright, give me that I try - sure, here it is, to run this software you only need to download the proprietary LastPass, then it will work - oh, is that so? And what does LastPass do to my computer? Do they track me? Read my information? Read my passwords?