From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Boruch Baum Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: ~Make emacs friendlier: package documentation [POC CODE INCLUDED] Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 03:34:32 -0400 Message-ID: <20201016073432.4bmahi4jna2xxayl@E15-2016.optimum.net> References: <20201015190929.gdvx7j2yukcdcoaw@E15-2016.optimum.net> <83pn5jwav0.fsf@gnu.org> <20201015194132.jdn3e2v62vfvh7ju@E15-2016.optimum.net> <83imbawu6y.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1496"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 16 09:38:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTKJY-0000GW-7k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:38:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45642 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTKJW-0004T7-U1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 03:38:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39756) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTKG9-0002cJ-LM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 03:34:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:53269) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTKG6-0007b9-AF; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 03:34:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1602833675; bh=PYimLNXqhrf9Vl2fRjZ3xrQCw14JbX7ld8F1ifqFWYY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=Tp38APw0hWrp0Cq3R4NDtloiEv8T+9ZBiP4FjOY911yLGF7uqBRXJWjEhLqfQQw2i IC0wrHehGVLZjSZoIy5V4vSpbuv1FnOE9D1qiLZoFL6z0jZM2WsiVcOVQXhX1rdwOO LtOcroiwO5yb/zxImPXB6fyRwfbmV+IMG76dcemo= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from E15-2016.optimum.net ([72.89.170.172]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.174]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mnpnm-1k5rPs3Ucc-00pOvP; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:34:35 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83imbawu6y.fsf@gnu.org> X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:cxS8fBf2zjXJgiwBjOL/AIEc4mElVSvmdTuyThlbvCdKWBzbolC 30A+jNDyO6ts+o9NtVwZAbdvSdWmH90Im5HeHNZptgB2/ilWHrA48D0LfIu76S4A4+wH/GL AUX6JRexL8T7vRLOVOuzzwKzM5xGuYYAjmBYw5KKAwrCNpGj9QbB/6nffFxdYrMgd7T8TrV 2YFspHMASoUcilaVNKl2Q== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:l5c4ucMd18w=:bIxidt1ejpFsSrZsE3+Q3u 2QevfnhSVzTU9ix7pXQh6CFYSmrluV8cPcJ09qpgaqbQrU71KCZVHMDcV7IJvu3yBg9YBeVCc vhRc+2BjthyC+xoiS82WPEfjbskCu6r9lc5A0IjZxmLu11luwZ23upFMbawW0ZAVHvnONNwG/ sjjq4E4vHpbYrHkGGa72cjcH2Q9Acw6xiueXAbGOfRYsRPCY3NR3Z09LUtlpSgGxsnmBLMtpK pHVW53YI5ORH2dEzt6VmZ63ty6qbIJpJQQLNV7EQwqWiaxeUEDr03l2QCweGYbYXvMlWAfovi bvb4ugDjlmcYNtht0Pfey8R+UmjTUJVqNTIQAQNhHeMQ4kwzjWcjOmTj9L0C/T0KQjs0lq03W qpVXFzrW90WEvvAbaObTZtG0/vKLZ51d+/+VK489N1C+cj015QwPthv/fL5n8jeqz09PUTZLW q0RR/HAUh93AzbmhDH2c9nM2N2Bq8NIKaftq8F9UzN+RCJnJuOQ5xKxcfv5Mh+S3NqC49TGIC Ih9yNAr2kqXcKDMY/OkWzc3n5i52JQVBHqFfJR2wjsZO+JnrS1TmYe53n2z8nWQpomkL6wsMb 4kAC1zEBAKhDb/Sr/N+bknDVm2nJ4l0TRdHiCJ3eN7gNJBxzpRRrePBQ40iGC2jGJGnSF0cDy Nge7ZdJg9gjSng15KcJcgpozzWDm//Qx1raR9QxKImlVeoMma8tAZI5IHNSnjlD/d4a5LiDKA /Ms52MqmpTDa0CrqoXTkJs6HoPxF3H4GsAyRMFVHq1sjfyEz5/zTOOy/Sehhx9p4+wfDlaB0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.20; envelope-from=boruch_baum@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/16 03:34:35 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257784 Archived-At: On 2020-10-16 09:39, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Thanks. To me this sounds like your code could be used to extend "C-h P= " > in useful ways. Perhaps the result of "C-h P" should include a button > "More information" or something that could produce an Org buffer with > the additional stuff. WDYT? > > The main point, I think, is not to create another command whose > functionality overlaps with an existing one, but instead extend the > existing command to do more when requested. 1) I share the sentiment about consolidating the help/describe commands, and have no objection to the feature being accessed via a link in describe-package (ie. no direct dedicated keybinding). 1.1) The output of the proof-of-concept code (for now I'll call it pack-doc, though I don't like the name) can kind of act as a surrogate for a package's info manual, so it might make sense to also have an entry point somehow from that angle, but I don't have an idea for how to do that. 1.2) The output is also meant to be useful for emacs developers and bug-fixers, in that the org-mode format allows them get a birds-eye view of the symbol landscape, and easily navigate about, swooping in and out to view docstrings. 1.2.1) For this target audience, it might be desirable to include the actual lisp code in sub-sub-headings or in collapsed code blocks, but that might confuse other users / audiences. 2) I do have a personal agenda with this proposal, and I want to be explicit about it. 2.1) Make it easier for emacs code contributors to document their work to best user effect and with least programmer effort / duplication. 2.2) Encourage literate programming in elisp files beyond simply docstrings. I see many package files that are conscientiously documented, yet also see many core-emacs packages whose documentation amount to just stubs. 3) pack-doc can operate on any elisp file that complies with emacs coding standards, even if it isn't on the package list and doesn't show up as a completion option for describe-package. In testing, I discovered dired.el as an example of a file that would be of interest but couldn't be accessed with the current method used by describe-package. Some options for such cases: 2.1) Change the completion/input code for describe-package (con: messy)= . 2.2) Allow direct interactive access to the feature, but without a keybinding (con: adds another obscure feature). 4) Have you (or anyone on the list, don't be shy) tried it on an el file? =2D- hkp://keys.gnupg.net CA45 09B5 5351 7C11 A9D1 7286 0036 9E45 1595 8BC0