From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Opening Up More Keymaps Re: Standardizing more key bindings? Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:38:12 +0200 Message-ID: <20201001123812.sdfy6t3eqbecv733@Ergus> References: <24436.53239.437810.270641@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> <24436.58187.698211.262192@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> <83362yisgn.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34845"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, thibaut.verron@gmail.com, raman@google.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 01 14:39:46 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kNxsA-0008wX-Ma for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 14:39:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60414 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNxs9-0003WA-9i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:39:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35222) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNxqz-0002m2-EP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:38:33 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic311-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.131.123]:40592) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kNxqu-0001Pj-5e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:38:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1601555903; bh=o+uk0c/VBeU4PjMPwK5v4Onw9K+FyQysx2Sc5BmwysY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=g87Jmw1iVbU+kSthEYpcS/cDnxNTPbvfD0Z9uui3+kdMio/OfPGReS5wgHO08m5831Bn6/E+m4AsuyJKRBCsMUf72/qyMwJS71wayqcUnI0bY65nwwnX5IYPEZ9HmUrCMoBvxUqSLEhQdoAkETG0FAJyLCZJK836NBD1RsfnnsltjpaagEmhCf5q3EvgrfT+WrDiydnEr6RDmnD9XMNzS3CJZORqfUZDhSwlie8C8IX+pnvB/3zpeFlt6rL889MWwRoSqqdXaVC9RGc5GV+uL//DVDJCzDB3J6FikZVVYIWgWeAlz4DJu3+hhyqfrZaVV9bQ8ngPMZPeKkNWZMRY9w== X-YMail-OSG: iCy8tNMVM1lePGf3Fl5_La3IUd3.2gOzIB3c3BqNHUncE0fxcJMWCCjfXevddaR qNnBzBPT0IjrMqMpVk_2aqLF9ShmZrX0.kFy.iBIgmbORg6ogXE6qcw4oneIaKQ5Odx29dpPbaTP HAaii4wziMWXwOKy2eT2aL3xFAdTQm_UAN1qBeSIXHFoyIbPCELIYXpkafWpwaE_lkZV70vxtIZ8 ZvFR.yrrUets7MixQjqZ7B9MR.O8_R8z_oWZICivFdu.Z4sDOkjmVr6BwTYsnsn3hCywYcXs0l6E edGwv4UIdbK80tBOJ.T1ZdTF8aEit4ZivmCENUf5y9RFyjLULBYancEsDbNsMeKN5paeNbxRdsS6 9S0p_4lFpe7Uq3d5dIeESKqJCOXBSDQNFOpW0G.BoaTLlM8CE4EjS6owqTZi93YqJvEGcH9Gflk3 NgQwY_vUp4L8SuU.V13i_6qjd49scJHOn4SP4D9l4Yo0xQ_LxxQoo7hVwMe5Vs67B8bXqVo82SD6 QzXX7Uizt2pp6FYnHDL6P7Vr7_KOmFyf7fyPNUn_3s7_lc0k.8rmGy2TiIwIp.3HR45l5_S6zCm9 hX4NwQOEpg2R3tMmFb9nct5CRyjw8BOIUDGbC7Yht8EZ4KvS.l_gOSdXXoh5Pb5zCWR8ta_TitTU T2wWXiIcEwt2dmVP8j_zJS.I3urhFULnDpgShMGdeaKE8YZxJyf5WFfra9gayeN8Ws4iL_EtvFwi nmlWg6HjHwln2FkaDQf_8L5XniJYeZYgWShMiss0.wK8dKrTynFIdaNqvElY_pGt5mRcNdLcoI.c UMM1aDOr2s4u_NsDOJRGufRqXEObQ0_ASvSAFdANBX Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:38:23 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp411.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7eccbadfe6c4000a01c34de874f70667; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 12:38:21 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83362yisgn.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16718 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.131.123; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic311-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/01 08:38:24 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256831 Archived-At: This thread is totally sacrilegious.. changing C-z to something really useful?! Heresy in the Emacs church!... I am totally in favor!!! For the fist step (release C-z) I see 2 main proposals: C-x C-z : which is already there C-z C-z : which will not fight with the user's muscular memory (as we repeat commands when they don't work the first time). But will require to be careful with what other commands we add later in the C-z map. At this point I would say (as a terminal exclusive user) that I don't care any of those because I already use C-z C-z for that since the beginning. (Actually C-z C-z C-z because I have tmux prefix also in C-z). For new users they have more C-z as undo in their muscular memory... so I have experienced that they get very confused when C-z makes the window disappear or closes emacs. Some of them think that emacs just failed and open a new one. At this point one of the admins should make a decision and do the change because there will be not more agreement than this (I think that this is the higher democratic limit ever reached in an agreement about a changing default binding here.) About F2 I don't really think will bother many people as there is an alternative `C-x 6` since ever. So please, admins, Close this with a decision from your side and we can continue with something else. (Otherwise this will be forgotten in few days) Best, Ergus On Thu, Oct 01, 2020 at 05:35:20AM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Stefan Monnier >> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 16:45:31 -0400 >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, thibaut.verron@gmail.com, dgutov@yandex.ru >> >> > that's an interesting perspective. Am surprized that you feel tty >> > users would find C-z z significantly harder than just C-z as the key >> > to suspend Emacs. >> >> I assume tty users have "C-z to suspend" hardwired in their fingers and >> would be quite surprised if any application decides to use another >> binding for it. > >Do they? Perhaps we should have a survey. FWIW, I use "C-x C-z" for >that since about forever (I need "C-z" for something much more useful >and frequent). >