From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 13:11:11 +0200 Message-ID: <20200928111111.sgifle4tkyc2gibj@Ergus> References: <20200928051606.GH16995@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34796"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: James Lu , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 28 13:12:56 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kMr5T-0008yX-O4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2020 13:12:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35018 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMr5S-0006LC-OZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2020 07:12:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50954) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMr43-0005Xw-K9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2020 07:11:27 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic305-1.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.133.40]:39305) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMr40-0001aI-SL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Sep 2020 07:11:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1601291482; bh=4CuI5DFjhTY9fUNh7XiHkZ7rFX3vnqGUtFubnHNIlGM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=ImiKTlfvuj9MFvlPS7hZRykTjrOPUYMi5UEAw9IduIDuh40NTb7unz6qx4mJWHc+YZUf5tdpc6pNGEl0aPU4YwJQblR/6t9mihKQzPt9Q0xhXpinPtuwBCs7KLqYu51LQeAZLX7NX7Kb1fvrljU63t3vVreFkbrSxdpE3DCrUZqCF9vsLZ1EUQkG1MSmXtRVK+EP1DZ0n8wTkWNxAQW1kmW35nft9YNfqCP3MJ3tiTVhqYGNakWMghevuprRVYZqyvSjkSuv2QTBiDb1XnaEHC+rNGWx84kUP0xQqkfkwSlExl3Dnxn1p5lsTByeTjZs1u3qPYthID5Dq1iuIbIXsA== X-YMail-OSG: MsB24jMVM1mO9RpT7KNeCanfLSTLH3PeEHUr3omEIo5nKh.lubqVVtUOTRCRzQG 8jHQEPTt2.JmPnKMnDbfxHipnRi._sDHF0qa8KJi9fqGhHftH31yssHWN7d_DHr8sT87CiOXZxfQ QXakQEgTWjgCnn3x_MJKk8F1rYL7ehjZUUbMD_RPyQfCUfgi_Uw6EkJj093Gn1nLtPeGgZ.1H9D7 YqwqufrfBQfD3oXLD8Z1o3MSx2l.KIHxuYqk3Dya1XXU.Yf1.lsxHM6kGBT4FuH3_68STCqy_O5r 0HwoKN8zaLUfNniTnpv1z6u6shhi0y23kauebDvT3szeTSvEK43sQpL5gM1_fqlcsC7gwp5qYmoG zaIEwahwSjfIhn_L5knyL93Ji9fjAy_D12RD2Iv5xG3PLNc3EWjG3EOehc5lslBx8zw9iRpvhKd7 .1mD85lFa8XhV16JrnZVYqUCDdN6i8oxsq76oAs7f1GG7tghiEPn1bPCYjlfZa6vhynzQhGpdwjj vkjWHNp6wD2TarnsUDvhvI8aI441G5VvakXcuCn4uIJfEDomqt0llAQu2PDaIUYq8ssgtonUZB.l Y_wwKPqlTuUs1Ag4QTF5l6n.ANBEc8y_0Z18WeohPkpNs5TtzBuHdqgBTrlBWV_IWruyDxOHq5Lo pZXEAtxYkCDBE_sfSThjRIq6NxUmZgMBjGKw7pk6B6RNF3iPekMSapptmJLPWyoXF5YnibJy0THx M7CCLmNMTTeojxKKj0ZiIFO6y3F96CUds4nyGUjL_nSE5FZX7vuMXXsV2HTvfXt6fe2kPmT2hRjy NabaUD4otVxY1kS6lCmByfh.U19u.aBNXaTrI0dDzC Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 28 Sep 2020 11:11:22 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp421.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a40bc05ad2e84f80895c3f056121badf; Mon, 28 Sep 2020 11:11:19 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200928051606.GH16995@protected.rcdrun.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16674 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.133.40; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic305-1.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/28 07:11:22 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -26 X-Spam_score: -2.7 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.614, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256586 Archived-At: Sorry Jean Louis but I totally disagree with all your opinions. 1) Yes, emacs popularity is NOT growing even without proportions, not relative or absolute numbers grow. You look at younger projects like sublime, atom, VSCode, notepad++, even vim is MUCH more popular than us. Just search editor ranking and you will see. Numbers are not opinions... that's the good about numbers. 2) There were some emails some weeks ago with some statistics and data but you can check many of them online. 3) Not only numbers but also community interaction and references to emacs are negligible if we compare with much newer projects around. 4) Also the number of developers is a measurement... specially the number of young and new developers... Most people prefer to just develop small packages and project and never even try to join to the core development. We should be worried about that and ask us why. 5) Denying the importance of the statistics here is like trusting the health of the project to feelings and hopes... Actually there are many ways to measure the health-maintainability-popularity of a project from different points of view (downloads, google hits, references, scientific articles related, number of threads in reddit, editor rankings, views and likes in youtube channel of related videos...) If you don't trust statistics then just look at the starts and ask them. I don't consider this as a competition; but as developers this is important: Popularity is proportional to users, users to potential developers and potential developers to new functionalities, updates, code reviews, new ideas. The less professional and newer users usually find issues more often than the advanced programmers. On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 08:16:06AM +0300, Jean Louis wrote: >Emacs is today more popular than ever. There is no decline in >popularity, there is increase in popularity. > >If one is developing or let's say simply loving Emacs as software, >then one should look into how many new users are coming to Emacs and >how spread and disseminated is Emacs and what impact it does, and if >that impact is greater and greater or lesser and lesser. > >There is no point in measuring various other editors and looking into >the proportional statistics of editor usage, to say that Emacs is not >popular, as that is incorrect, inadequate, let me also say false >statistics, that spreads doubts, it's negative energy. > >Let me give you example: > >Time period 1: > >- emacs users 20 >- other editor A 20 >- other editor B 35 > >Time period 2: > >- emacs users 25 >- other editor A 23 >- other editor B 38 > >Time period 3: > >- emacs users 30 >- other editor A 30 >- other editor B 42 > >In this blunt example, if you look into how many other editors are >used and compare that to Emacs, you could be saying that Emacs is not >popular. > >But that is wrong way of looking into things, what one has to look is >if Emacs is being used more and more. > >If I sell bread from my own bakery, I do not mind and it becomes >really not relevant, if so many other bakeries are out there, also >seling all kinds of bread. > >What really makes impact to me, as from my viewpoint, is if my bread >is selling more and more. As that is the one true statistics of >improvement and impact. > >Statistics of improvement and impact and popularity of Emacs should be >watched from Emacs distribution statistics. > >I have no access to YouTube, as I did not pay tax for Internte here in >Uganda and don't use VPN to access it, but I think that YouTube offers >searches by time, so one could search for Emacs in specific year >maybe, as what I know is that today there are more and more Emacs >presentations and videos, and more and more people speak about Emacs, >as I am observing it last 21 years, I can say today is Emacs more >popular than ever. > >Jean >