From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:58:24 +0300 Message-ID: <20200926185824.GV1349@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> <83y2kwpjfo.fsf@gnu.org> <20200926173651.GU1349@protected.rcdrun.com> <83sgb4pfvl.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18571"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.14.0 (2020-05-02) Cc: jamtlu@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 26 21:00:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kMFQW-0004he-NW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:00:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47148 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMFQV-0008V0-Pc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 15:00:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40570) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMFPk-0007tV-4k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 14:59:20 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:58491) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMFPe-0008UO-FQ; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 14:59:19 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.40.117]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000081F4E.000000005F6F8F54.00007B89; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 11:58:27 -0700 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83sgb4pfvl.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@rcdrun.com; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/26 12:02:28 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256493 Archived-At: * Eli Zaretskii [2020-09-26 21:12]: > > Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 20:36:51 +0300 > > From: Jean Louis > > Cc: jamtlu@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > * Eli Zaretskii [2020-09-26 19:55]: > > > You cannot learn this stuff by walking around the UI and reading the > > > tooltips. It's unrealistic. Those tooltips assume some minimal > > > knowledge of the terminology and the UI elements, which are described > > > in the tutorial and in the first chapter of the manual. > > > > It is your opinion. > > Each one of us expresses his or her own opinions. It's a trivium. Sure, but we talk about users, so to say that one cannot learn the stuff in general, should be supported by some kind of a survey. The fact is right now is that not every tooltip is usable, so fact is now in present time, that in my particular example, I cannot learn several words. So it will happen to new user to get confused. Users expect tooltips to describe the function, and description shall be made better understandable. > > I tried finding what should undecided-unix mean, and I cannot find, I > > just found that "unix" is alias for "undecided-unix". > > Type "C-h i m emacs RET i undecided RET", and read there. I did not find the definition for undecided-unix by following your example. That it is alias, does not define it. > > Does the tooltip assume that only experienced user, in this case, > > experienced developer is to know what it means?! > > Not "experienced", but one who have read some minimal introductory > material about the Emacs UI, and/or have learned how to use the manual > to search for (as yet) unknown concepts. For that group of people I disagree they need any tooltip then. Tooltip is for users to understand it, it is not for Emacs UI skilled people. It is for unskilled. > > tooltip should help the user understand what is it. > > It does. It just doesn't (and cannot) explain everything, because a > tooltip is a small widget which cannot display a very long text, and > because clicking on the text in a tooltip is impossible, at least in > some/most toolkits we use. The point is not one tooltip, there are many examples, yet it is hard for you to see what I see, and what could be obvious to many, that is why few threads have been spawned here. In marketing, I always learn to look from client's viewpoint. > > If user cannot understand the word, then cannot understand the > > sentence, so how it can be good to bring users to misunderstandings? I > > don't get the logic. > > The logic is that when they find some term that is not clear, and the > text there doesn't have a hyperlink to where that term is described in > more detail (there usually is), then the user should go to the > Glossary and search the term there. Sure, you know it. But does it say anywhere? Does it guide the user? Emacs as Lisp have all the capacities to guide the user. It has the capacity to provide a humorous psychoterapist, so it can also guide a user in better way. > > > > I wanted to find out about "Search Files..." so the menu option is > > > > pretty clear, it helps me search files, but then description about > > > > "Search files" does not even mention the word "search". > > > > > > Unsurprisingly, the doc string assumes the user already knows what > > > Grep is. So it doesn't say "search", because that's what Grep stands > > > for. > > > > >From the new user viewpoint I cannot possibly agree with that > > explanation. Descriptions of menus should be accessible and > > understandable for users especially from a new user viewpoint. > > Once again, there are limitations of what can be usefully said in a > short menu entry and its tooltip. If you have practical suggestions > for how to use up the available screen estate better in that case, > please propose how to improve the wording we have there. I think that general principles shall be set first, as to improve wording, there are so many that could be improved, the descriptions should not be written in first place that do not describe it meaningfully. So I do not speak of a specific bug, I speak of general flaws hindering understanding for users. > > > Doc strings are in generally terse; if you want more details, > > > including background etc, you need to read the description of the > > > commands in the user manual. There's a 95-line section there about > > > M-x grep and related commands. > > > > I am not speaking of myself Eli. I am speaking of new user viewpoint. > > So am I. Alright, then your viewpoint for new users is way advanced. You are targeting various groups, not only Unix hackers or experienced users or UI skilled users. > > Even "Search files..." is not well described. You cannot possibly > > design any interface for new user with experienced user viewpoint. > > Once again, the menus assume a certain level of understanding and > expectations. You are claiming that those assumptions are incorrect, > but the solutions you propose are simply not practical, as they ignore > the basic limitations of the screen estate we have for this, and would > make the doc strings impractically verbose and full of loosely-related > background information. Our policy is to leave the extra information > for the manual. The doc string, if it is taken out of it, that relates to Search files, should be more descriptive. >From grep manual: grep searches the named input FILEs for lines containing a match to the given PATTERN. If no files are specified, or if the file “-” is given, grep searches standard input. By default, grep prints the matching lines. So something like: Search files (Grep...) is using the external shell command "grep" that searches the named input files for lines containing a match to the given pattern. That would be in this particular example much better described then: > runs the command grep (found in global-map), > which is an autoloaded interactive compiled Lisp function in > ‘grep.el’. > It is bound to . > (grep COMMAND-ARGS) > Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 1.4. > Run Grep with user-specified COMMAND-ARGS. > The output from the command goes to the "*grep*" buffer. > While Grep runs asynchronously, you can use C-x ` (M-x next-error), > or RET in the *grep* buffer, to go to the lines where Grep found > matches. To kill the Grep job before it finishes, type C-c C-k. > > We speak here more of principles of design of the interface and > > descriptions. Practical implementations may come later. > > Emacs already does have the practical implementations. They are > well-thought and are being constantly improved. There's no need to > start from scratch, as what we have already is a reasonably good and > newbie-friendly UI. It is newbie-friendly because the Emacs > developers of past and present invest a lot of efforts into making it > so. I don't say from scratch, many things are already there, descriptions, Info, docstring, I just speak of better connectivity to instructions and to information and improvement of those sentences that appear not understandable to average computer users, with the purpose to bring it to more users in the world. Myself personally, I like it how it is, but to draw new users, it has to become fancier, easier, moderner, use any attribute here, the point is that it does need that group of improvements that will attract larger users' base, and not have them reject it. It is good to read what some people are writing here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24593616&p=2 so read those comments and see. Jean