* Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> [2020-09-26 17:54]:
> On one side Emacs is extremely powerful and complex so it should be
> expected some differences with other software

That is right. It is written in the Lisp programming language also
popular for applications of artificial intelligence. Under Help menu
there is psychoterapist, so I guess the joke with it can become
reality, as new users may feel so frustrated that the only thing is to
speak to artificial psychoterapist.

I am expecting Emacs to interact with user, to ask questions and give
answers and offer choice of answers and options as that is what
psychoterapis is also doing.

> BUT, on the other hand, it is true that Emacs makes some simple things
> more complex/weird and keep them like that just because "it is the emacs
> way" or "not to bother old users" or "we shouldn't do that just because
> others do" or "our way is better just 90% more complex because it covers
> this very weird and infrequent use case".

None of those reasons are valid.

Emacs developers are friendly and willing to improve Emacs, it is
process, takes time, and everybody is welcome.

In any subject of life, we want users to easier understand
instructions so that whatever is to be used, can be easier learned to
be used.

Emacs does great job there:

- Help menu is there

- Tutorials, FAQ, News and problems, sending bug reports, and if 
  nothing works, then psychoterapist, manuals, packages, jokes, all
  kinds of things

It is all there, it is self-describing editor.

While great work of description and instructions have been already
implemented, what is missing is a built-in dictionary of computing
and editing terminology used within Emacs and maybe even a Wordnet
dictionary.

> It is like a language evolution; with 1 or 2 differences it is fine; but
> after many years with that policy the rest of the world evolves and only
> the ancient people in the city will know your language while the younger
> only learn it if they are forced to or have not choice.

Myself I do not feel that attitude, quite contrary, I feel that users
and beginners are welcome and that many compromises are made and new
features are being implemented to help the new users.

It would be good to make a competition of Emacs Lisp authors to make
packages for beginners, so that a new "category" of packages, strike
the "category", that a new tag is made something like "beginner" so
that new packages are created to teach beginners various functions of
the editor.

Finally, you could also describe workflows how beginners could learn
more and propose it here.

> Many things in emacs are indeed different because they were before; even
> before the computer boom in the 90s; but then after the years everyone
> adopted a different "standard" (due to Windows, Office, or even gnome
> and KDE) and somehow we decided not to follow them. Again with one or
> two details it is fine; but after some years... the differences pilled
> up.

I do not see a problem with that, and it is too much of a general
statement.

Quite contrary, I can also see that Emacs bindings are included in
many other software:

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=tuttieee.emacs-mcx
https://support.rstudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/210928128-Emacs-Editor-Keybindings
https://github.com/p-baleine/jq.el
https://askubuntu.com/questions/124815/how-do-i-enable-emacs-keybindings-in-apps-such-as-google-chrome

So obviously many other software packages are following Emacs
keybindings, and Emacs is following and allowing any kind of key
bindings of other software.

It is not about key bindings only, Emacs is extensible, it was made
for the reason you want it, to be customized, extensible, so when
something is missing, please do: {M-x report-emacs-bug} and tell
developers about it, request a new feature.

> IMO it makes sense that a user reads a manual to know how to record a
> macro, or replace all occurrences of a regex, or configure completions,
> autopair, send email...

That is great really.

> But it is crazy (and pointless to discuss in this mailing list) that
> a user has to learn how to copy and paste from the keyboard or try

I thint it is point-full, and exactly those features you mentioned, I
would put in the spoken by espeak or other speech engine instruction
or within {M-x tell-me-more-I-am-beginner-mode}

> to understand why there is not a right click panel with the
> basic-common options, or why shift+click doesn't behave as it does
> everywhere else...

Those things are maybe becomming common, not that I know it is some
kind of standard, it is not I would say. In my opinion your
expectation is subjective based on what was familiar to you. 

I did use right click in many applications like on Desktop, Window
Managers, KDE, etc. But I never used it in Emacs, neither I expected
right click in Emacs to behave like you are expecting it. Due to my
experience with right click, I can understand easily what you
mean. Yet me subjective impression is that I never even used right
click in Emacs.

For some general function of Emacs to be implemented or changed, I
would always suggest to make a real user survey, as that way we avoid
subjective impressions.

You may easily put on right click what you wish. You expect that it
does something for new users, I don't and never did since 1999. Today
I learn that I can use left click to place a cursor at one side of a
text and right click to mark or highlight the region with the right
click. And if I do double click I am deleting the text by using
mouse. Good feature, but personally I never needed it. And I would not
need anything else on right click.

Jean